Tim Uhler

Jeremy Perkins  0:00

Hey, this is Jeremy and you're listening to bucket talk powered by BRUNT. We're here with Tim Mueller, a pioneer builders, Tim has over 20 years experience framing houses listening as he shares insight into what he's learned over the years.

Tim Uhler  0:12

This is bucket top weekly podcast where people who work in the trades and construction that aren't just trying to survive, but have the ambition and desire to thrive.

Intro  0:21

The opportunity to trades and construction is absolutely ridiculous right now. So if you're hungry, it's time to eat. We discuss what it takes to rise from the bottom to the top with people who are well on their way and roll up their sleeves every single day.

Jeremy Perkins  0:40

Today, we're here with Tim Mueller, a pioneer builders, he also has the Instagram handle awesome framers. Tim, welcome. Nice to be with you. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. So we're gonna dive into framing. You're a framer by trade, correct? Correct. Yep. And, you know, I wanted to get a little background on and how you came to be a framer? I mean, so my brother in law, he's a framer, by trade came over came over from Ireland. And, you know, that's kind of the things that he did over there was carpentry and, you know, it came to the states and, and did everything in New York City and the Northeast. How did you get started? Ah,

Tim Uhler  1:18

so my dad started building in the late 70s. on his own, he worked for, like a production builder in the early to mid 70s. Yep. So I just grew up basically, with a hammer in my hand, I would drive around with him. Any tools that were laying around or blocks of wood, and I just nailed them together. It has just been in my blood. That's what I wanted to do. And I really enjoy it.

Jeremy Perkins  1:39

That's awesome. So when when did you get started? Like, at what age did you jump into the business and and start doing the math and really working the job sites?

Tim Uhler  1:51

I think, man, I was trying to think of this last week. I remember spending spring break and I think eighth or ninth grade whenever that Aerosmith album came out with Oh, I forget the name of that album now. But anyway, the young guy that I worked with, he was younger than me. He would just he would blast the truck radio all day long. We jump started at night. And just that was my spring break. Working in the rain. I remember hanging off top plates to hang facia and just being scared out of my mind. But I thought it was so cool to be with the guys that I just would use all my school breaks to just go out and work.

Jeremy Perkins  2:24

So you're in the you're in the northwest, correct of the edge. Yeah, just west of Seattle. So I was funny because I was I was watching some of your your YouTube videos and things that we have for building up here is different for building that you have out there were snow loads and stuff like that. But you know, I was watching a, you put together a staircase and doing flooring, and you're talking about, you know, seismic activity. So that's that I thought that was pretty cool that you're building stuff has a lot is a little bit different than the Northeast code.

Tim Uhler 2:59

Yeah, yeah. So in fact, one of the reps from Simpson strong tie came out today. And we were talking about that. So we're Seismic Zone D two, which is my brother always said, basically, what that means is we're going to get a big earthquake at some point, we just, they they predict like a 10% chance of the big one, you know, in the next 50 years. So we design around that. So it's not too complicated for us compared to California, but it's more hardware than I think a good chunk of the country sees, but in our particular spot here, West to Seattle, we're a very mild climate, we got lots of rain, not a lot of heat, not a lot of snow, obviously closer to the mountains, you do but we just, we just designed for that earthquake that might happen. Whereas the rest of the country has to design for that hurricane that will happen or that snow storm that will happen.

Jeremy Perkins  3:43

So that's pretty cool. And and how do you how do you know I, I saw an episode where you were, were talking about how, you know, it's just being on the job and learning and then passing on the knowledge and, and trying to inform the next group of people coming up. But these are some big These are some big topics in the building industry that you talk about that? How do you how do you stay up on on your on all the information that you need to do to from from math to structure from engineering? I mean, as a framer? How do you stay current in your trade?

Tim Uhler  4:18

That is a good question because almost none of us go to school for it. So what I find my dad was always a big subscriber to like all of the trade magazines, builder magazines, and his philosophy always was if you learn one thing that that subscription was worth it. So we've always done the trade shows and that kind of thing. So I grew up reading journals like construction. And then back in the early 2000s, probably 2003. I went to jail C's website one day and I was like, Oh, they have a construction forum. And that really, probably over like the next two or three years after that both five home buildings break time for him and jL C's forum just ended up being a place where a lot of guys from all over the country seemed to gather and just talk the trade. Yeah. And I learned a ton from that. So I would say the magazine, and then the author's all spent time on the forums. And it was almost real time feedback where you could ask a question and get it, you know, give it a go check my email to see if anybody responded. And so it was it was mostly that the magazines and then I guess, just the internet, lack of a better expression.

Jeremy Perkins  5:24

So I saw, I want to ask you kind of a personal question. Did you did you go from high school into the trades? Did you go to college? Do Do you have another skill set?

Tim Uhler  5:32

So the idea was both my brother and I, we did the Community College, the other smart enough to do Running Start I did two years after my senior year in high school. So we were actually at the community college together. Yeah, so we took like accounting and that kind of stuff. And I just did not like I was ready to be done with school. And he, he really enjoyed that kind of stuff. So he definitely gravitated more to the business side. And I just loved being hands on. So you know, once that two years is up, so I've got my a with accounting course, I can't remember any of it. But I just really loved being on the job site. So it's kind of a little bit of both. I didn't do the university thing, but got a little bit of education, a little bit more math, and in writing, which actually, in hindsight, now I realize just taking English 101 and 102, I had a good one or two teacher. And then when I got asked to start writing for the magazine was like, Oh, well, that was that was kind of a nice little turn of events. Training.

Jeremy Perkins  6:27

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, because there's a, you know, from from dealing, you know, whether you're in a Ford customer facing role, being able to speak, read, write, actually just write legibly, is is always a plus in our industry. I mean, I have some great mechanics that, you know, that I've worked with in the past that when they wrote something down, you're like, what, what does, what does that say? And and it just, you know, it makes the job just a little bit harder. But it is nice to be polished, a little bit on on those

Tim Uhler  6:56

skills that you wouldn't think Yeah, I'm with you. 100%. There's, there's a young guy that's gotten pretty popular on YouTube. And he's got a pretty decent Instagram following. And I won't say his name, you know, he's a nice guy. But he dropped out of high school, and he spends a lot of time on his feeds, talking about how you can make good money in the trades without an education. And I understand what he's saying, like, you don't need to get a Harvard education to become a plumber.

But he's, he's almost encouraging people to drop out of high school. That's not for you just go into the trades. And I hear where he's coming from. But the polish that you mentioned, like being able to speak to an inspector or an engineer, or like, I'll give you an example, we have the sheriff called on us, we've got one neighbor on the job that we're on, that just freaks out if anybody's fenders hanging over the road there, it's just a little community. Yeah. So he every single time, I mean, literally an inch, I have him on camera getting upset at us. And so being able to even communicate with the two sheriff's deputies, when they come out, and make sure that they feel like they're at ease, that when we come out, we're not those guys that have met teeth, or, you know, just just have that look of somebody who's maybe been around the block. one too many times.

Jeremy Perkins  8:09

Yeah, I mean, you're 100%, right. I mean, and you could be good at your craft, but, you know, just learning numbers. So I'm back, I'm back in college, myself, and I'm learning you know, Excel and, and more writing and trying to get more managerial, if you will, you know, be able to lead but you know, when you lead as, as a as a, you know, the head framer or head foreman or whatever you want to call it in your industry, it's nice to be able to help people outside the trade. So the guys that you have, from Hey, boss, I don't know what a routing number is, can you help me out with that? You know, yeah, and it's funny, or even now I got I got, you know, people from other countries that that work with us. And they can't call customer service on on the tool account that they have. And so you're sitting there talking with customer service, trying to decipher, you know, their account information and everything. So, it's just, it's nice to be able to be a little bit more polished. I agree with that.

Tim Uhler  9:10

in it. What it does, is like, in this particular case, the neighbor, you know, he comes out, he's all upset. He's like, I'm going to call the sheriff and it's like, go for it. I don't we haven't done anything wrong. I mean, you're talking about one inch, I mean, we'll move the car that's not a big deal. But go ahead, roll. And so he's come out a couple times different sheriff's, and just being able to articulate yourself without being you know, I always call these guys berserkers where they're just ready to go insane. Right and just and the the neighbors appreciate that kind of stuff, the inspectors, the other trades, I don't really care where it's at when you can present yourself well and show that you respect other people. And not to say that that's something that you just learned going through college or high school or anything else. But I think that when you're forced to deal with more people, you get better at that.

Jeremy Perkins  9:57

Yes. And and education isn't necessarily A, you know, in a classroom setting, either and I think that that's, that's something that Yeah, you can drop out of high school and, and learn on the job and and become one of the best customer face you can you can own a business, there's tons of people out there that do it. But to say that they stopped learning is is is untrue and education comes in many forms and whether it's, you know, online learning at night that doesn't amount to a college degree. But whether it's like you said, studying, you know, talking to people on the forums or going to trade shows or, or just or staying current. I think education is very important. It's just not one size fits all. And I agree with that completely. Yeah. And

Tim Uhler  10:38

I that's one thing I I'm not a social media guy. I never had a Facebook account. I don't I just there's something about the look of that website that I just never liked from the beginning. Yeah. And so I wasn't interested Instagram, I got into photography, because that's my hobby. And then my editor at the trade magazine was like, I think should take this more seriously. And our account was just a joke. Yeah. But what I found is, is that what some of us think of is education. It's a four year university, it's Ivy League, it's whatever. But learning is really what we're trying to promote. And that comes like you're saying in so many different ways. And Instagram, ironically, to me, is one of those great ways to learn because there's a guy named Steve basic back east in Massachusetts, he's an architect, okay. And I can direct message him with questions. And he gets back to me and worked.

Jeremy Perkins  11:25

Where's he out of? Because I'm actually from Massachusetts,

Tim Uhler  11:29

I'd have to look up doors, I'll definitely look them up. I mean, yeah, I can send it to you. But yeah, super approachable. He's a, he's an architect that worked with Building Science Corporation. So this, like papers that we read on building science and like, how to make the house weather tight, but you know, energy efficient. And it's like, wait a minute, I can go to a guy that worked with the guy that wrote all these papers that we're all kind of basing our work off of over a social media platform, or I can talk to another builder, or I can talk to manufacturers and get information much quicker than I could calling. Right? It's though it's kind of the weirdest thing. But it's making all of us better, like we're being exposed to, like you said earlier, the way you guys are building where you're at versus us. There's guys around the country or in Canada that had never heard of a lot of this stuff. But then they'll post something that I've never heard of. And it just, it's almost like musical influence. If you only ever tried to be Eddie Van Halen, you would just sound like Eddie Van Halen. But if you listen to Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen, and you listen to classical music, and all this, that you just are better. Oh, yeah, same thing in the trades. Like, I don't have that much day to day contact with plumbers, but I follow us. And so at least I get kind of an introduction into, to what all goes on, besides making sure the toilet flushes.

Jeremy Perkins  12:48

Well, but you know, and in the building industry, I think for you, and I think it's very important to understand what the next guy is going to be doing even on a basic scale, because there's good chance that you're going to build relationships, you're going to work with these people, it's going to make, you know, tight schedules easier because you could work alongside the plumber versus the plumber coming in later and doing all his stuff, but but knowing what his steps are gonna be creates a lot of creates less steps for him in turn, making him more money. So I think I think that that's very important. I mean, that's one of the common things that I hear. Because, you know, I'm like the barber shop of the trades, you know, they come get their car repaired at my shop. And and you hear him, you know, bitching about this so and that's one of the biggest things are you know, I had to move we had to get there, the the framer to come in and move this because, you know, the electrical wasn't right or, you know, the the drywall or covered up all my electrical boxes or, or it's just, it's just amazing, the griping, because just a little bit of misinformation or a little less education. And if they just had that little bit it would have it would have gone a long way. Yeah, yeah. Yep. So what's a day in the life like for you? I mean, so first off, I'm very impressed with your, your audio or sorry, your visual. From video two still photographs. I mean, it's almost like you have a camera crew on your job sites, which is amazing. But other than that, like, what do you go through on a daily basis?

Tim Uhler  14:22

Oh, man, that's a good question. Um, yeah, every time somebody asked me like, Hey, what's new? Well, nothing. That much changes. You know, I get up about five every morning and yeah, and I like to I've always like, the getting up early. It's just that naturally when I was a kid, I used to just be the first one up and so I'd always start the fire in the fireplace using way too much wd 40. naps for the house down? Yeah, but I just like to get up read a little bit. Take my time get to work. You know, we started about seven and we just work all the video stuff is on a GoPro which I cannot clamp to a stud and it's it's super easy to use. Frame throughout the day, come home. Spend time with the wife. We're religious family. So Tuesday nights and Saturdays and Sundays were usually tied up with that. And then it's just walking the dog and, and reading and trying not to spend too much time on social media.

Jeremy Perkins  15:12

No, that's awesome. And do you? It's a tough question, but you actually enjoy what you do. Currently. I mean, it is the love still there has the luster worn off? And you know, that's a good question. Because there

Tim Uhler  15:23

are days where I'm like, this is the dumbest job in the world. It's one problem after another. But most of the time, I really like it, because I like we have to take the month of March off, because here in Washington, we had to stay at home order for the COVID. And all of us have just been all messed up physically, kind of sitting around for a month, and I thought I was staying active. But one thing I really like about framing is staying active. You know, I'll be 43 in December. And I just don't want to, I can tell him slowing down a little bit. But I just want to stay active. So I'm fortunate where we can invest in tools and equipment that minimize, you know, the repetitive stress type of stuff. But I just really liked putting the tool bags on. And just using a saw and a nail gun. And there's times where I'm working alone where the guys are sick or on different jobs. And I can listen to my music, ironically, like listening to like folk music sometimes will actually just put me in a good mood and you're singing and it's like, even if the weather's bad, when at the end of the day, you can see that you did something or Yep, this last winter was just rough. It was so wet. But when I look back at the pictures, I'm just like, Yeah, but we dealt with it. We like we didn't just go home like wimps, we, we got it out. And so you get a sense of satisfaction of gone. I didn't take the easy way out.

Jeremy Perkins  16:46

So what's amazing about what you just said, and I love it is You said you're slowing down. And if you look at it a different way, are you becoming more efficient, because I remember when I was first in the trades, and I was a complete mess tools everywhere. I felt like I was going 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction. I was always scrambling to get the job done. I was working my butt off. But yeah, I watched I watched the guy next to me probably 50 years old and he's eating a banana looking out the door. And he's billing more hours than me. And I'm like, How the hell does he do it? And and as you get older, you starting to realize you've done it enough that the job actually seems a little bit easier. You're picking things up the right way? Are you Yeah, you know, the tools more than then your body? I mean, so being, I guess slowing down, do you find yourself actually being more efficient?

Unknown Speaker  17:40

Yeah. And that's kind of been a constant focus. You know, that's one thing about framing I've taught I have friends that have been superintendents in commercial. And they said, whenever they're looking for another guy to train as a superintendent, they look for framers, because it is like pounded into our head, you never walk anywhere without something in your hand. Right? If you have to walk back to the truck in, you know, grab your lunch, take a tool that you know, you're not going to use the rest of the day. And so that becomes second nature. Like this summer, we've had a young guy working with us for the summer while he's off school. And watching how hard he works for something super basic. It's just a My heart goes out to him. Because remember, just the struggle in your life. And so I'll show him how to lift things. That's kind of where some of the joy comes now is it's not at the end of the day saying, you know, I burned 7000 calories running all day, it was like, I didn't have to work that hard and got the same amount done because I'm more efficient now.

Jeremy Perkins  18:33

Well, that's amazing. Like the tricks I've learned, you know, I watched I watched one guy just just slam a hat, a sledgehammer to a rotor and the rotor popped off. And I was like, that's a pretty neat trick. And you know, all the all this time you're hammering from the backside and won't come off. And you do see, learning the little tips and tricks and the little shortcuts is is is actually fun to teach. And, and as I'm getting older, I forget, you know, all the small shortcuts that I take for granted are actually huge time savers. That coming in. So it's it's hysterical.

Unknown Speaker  19:08

And that's part of what I love about social media is so when I was on the forums learning, I'm learning from guys that are probably older than I am now. But they were willing to share. And I feel like it's my responsibility to almost like, not just pay it forward, but the same spirit of generosity that they had. So if there's something that we learn, I put it on Instagram, because I know it's going to help somebody. And if there's something we do stupid, I'm going to put it on Instagram because then people don't think that they're the only ones. I mean, we make mistakes all the time. And so I like the I like the community of sharing, and I never liked hearing stories about in certain, like commercial jobs, especially where everybody closely guarded their secrets. Yeah, I understand you know, you're trying to try to keep some job security but on the other hand, if you're watching somebody just work their tail off and you can you can walk like we did a we had a tear out uh, it was like a remodel project that we had. tear out the stairs. And we were kind of out of work back in oh eight. So it was one of our kingdom halls were Jehovah's Witnesses. And so we were remodeling and this guy, we call them Dave, the concrete guy cuz he was a commercial guy. The guy's name was Dave and he worked on the crate. So he walks over watching a struggle to rip out these stairs. And in a couple blows with a sledgehammer. He had the thing in pieces. In my coworker and I even now 10 years later, we talked about how to Dave know exactly where to hit that. So that I mean, we pounded on that thing with sledgehammers and jackhammers all afternoon. Of course, he may have just waited until he knew the right time, and just just to show knows, but I just, I appreciate people who are willing to share their knowledge. And so many people have been generous with me that it's like, no, let's pass this on. You know, keep it fun.

Jeremy Perkins  20:47

So you, so you're a little bit older than me, but I think we kind of grew up in the same time period, there wasn't really much along the lines. So you know, growing up, it was, you know, national news, local news, you know, cartoons on Saturday, but we had whatever PBS and and you'd have Bob Vila norm Abrams, you have this old house, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And it wasn't, it wasn't a lot like you can go on you can go on the internet now or, or go through 9000 channels on the TV and, and find all these all these, you know, different DIY shows and what have you. But for us, it was like one show this old house. Yeah. And it's it's amazing that now we're kind of doing the same thing. And I like passing it on to the kids and trying to get them more involved. And I think it's great. I mean, even with my daughter now it's it's something that my parents did for me was teaching me to work with my hands a little bit.

Unknown Speaker  21:47

Is this something that you're going to do with your kids? I don't have any kids, but it's knit something. So I've got three nieces from my sister. And then my brother's got two little boys and and a little girl. Yeah. And so even the other day, we've got a Kubota mini excavator. And so Ethan happened to wake up early. And so my brother was like, gonna make the rounds on the jobs. And he's he's so he just took him with him and put them in the Kubota. I don't know, I love the idea of teaching kids to work with their hands. My dad grew up on a farm in North Dakota. And in that work ethic, if it wasn't for just like age related issues, like arthritis and things he would be working all day every day because he just you learn the value of work in sweating, and accomplishment and organizing and cleanup and all those things that I hated it. like five or six, I find the most pleasure and now. So I really think that that's something that either with my nieces and nephews or if I had my own kids, I would definitely want them working with their hands.

Jeremy Perkins  22:43

Well, I think it was funny, because I think that's like also the key to longevity, too. I mean, other than other than genetics, you see, we have a local guy, I think he's in his 90s. And he does Small Engine Repair in the in the area, and he won't give it up. And that's a sense of purpose in life. And essentially, until his body fails, which you know, that has everything to do with genetics. It won't prematurely fail because he wakes up every morning with a sense of purpose versus just deteriorating, if you will.

Unknown Speaker  23:16

Yeah, we had in the congregation that my wife grew up in it was an old guy. He was an old lager named Jean. Yeah. And Jean was probably in his 80s when I was talking to him, and and he asked me what I do. And I said, Oh, I frame and work on houses. And, and he said, You know, I think that is the best thing to be outside working. He goes, I'm convinced that I've lived this long and this healthy because I've lived that whole time in the woods. You know, he lived in, I think almost 90. And same thing. We've known old guys that were roofers that were still up there working on projects in their 80s and nailing almost as fast as guys could use a gun. Yeah. And it was just, you know, that was my big fear it was somehow getting injured. So we've always been real careful and take that stuff seriously. But I look at those guys and go, how long can I swing a hammer? Well, I think quite a long time. Yeah. And I want to keep being able to do it. I just, I'm with you sitting around editing video for the month that we were off. Just have this like what is going on? It's like that month aged me 10 years?

Jeremy Perkins  24:13

Well, unfortunately for me, I've been off for five months because my children haven't where we were like hard hit and Oh, yeah. So I go I go back on on. I go back next week. So I'm actually looking forward very much to Yeah, turning wrenches again. So yeah, I

Unknown Speaker  24:29

mean, we when we went back we it's been a struggle here for the last couple of years to find guys to do our concrete flat work like driveways and slabs. Yeah. And I had done a little bit of it. We used to do that stuff when I was a kid, but I just mostly was labor. And so it's like, well, I think we can figure it out. And there's a couple big concrete accounts on Instagram that have been super helpful. So it was like that we went straight from kind of sitting on on our backsides for a month to doing Concrete Work, and it just felt so good to sweat and it felt good to wake up the next morning was Some aches It was like, Oh, we use the muscles that haven't been used in a while. just felt good. I feel like even emotionally or mentally with all the all the crazy stuff that's going on besides pandemics and in the normal stresses, like here in Seattle, it's been basically nonstop protesting and all that kind of stuff. And it's just everybody is on on just the razor's edge. And I feel like just getting out there and sweating and working is a way to stay somewhat balanced. Insane.

Jeremy Perkins  25:24

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's there's something to be said about getting your hands dirty. I mean, I can't wait that these things are too pretty. I don't have any grime on my fingernails, and it's killing me.

Unknown Speaker  25:35

He's a septic designer. And they also do maintenance. And he said that every year all the office people get super sick. But all guys out there pumping septics, he goes, none, no more gloves, they eat their lunch while they're pumping? Those guys never get sick. Yeah, I think there is something for dirty hands.

Jeremy Perkins  25:51

Exactly. Um, so I want I wanna, I want to hear the trade problems that you have. Because, you know, for people listening, I, you know, I want to I want to hear what, you know, influencers or, you know, leaders in the in the trades are doing to kind of get away from things, you know, bad or what have you. I mean, we talked about earlier how, you know, he fly off the handle with a customer or you're just not well smoking, spoken, or you can't articulate the situation that it makes your job harder, and you may not, you know, you may be doing the right thing, but you may not get that, that recommendation later, and then in turn gives us a bad a bad look, as as a tradesman. so empowering the trades is kind of been my biggest thing and, you know, making us, you know, lifting us up putting us on a pedestal saying these guys are just as good as anybody else out there, you know, as opposed to people looking down at us calling us grease monkeys or, or what have you. What are some unspoken trends or issues you're seeing in your trades? You know, I

Unknown Speaker  26:56

don't know, I feel like the the media and maybe social media to some extent, in talking about the the shortage of skilled labor, a lot more high school kids are looking to trade schools, and the trades in general, because often, especially the construction, doing what's doing, you could go work in a big city or work with the unions and make great money. Yeah, learn a skill, you know, make a living wage while you're learning the skill, which there's a huge advantage, obviously, to that. I just don't find personally, and it could just be the community that we're in, you know, we've got the Navy, and the Naval Shipyard. And then there's a big army base, just like 45 minutes from us, and we've got the submarine base. And like, those guys are known for being very smart, the Navy does not they pick smart guys to be on submarines. So and they're always very kind well spoken. So I feel like our community, it's almost we're not an agricultural community. But whenever we go to Eastern Washington, you find that people don't look down on people who work with their hands in our area. Not sure if they got to downtown Seattle, you could find some of that, but I just don't. Sometimes I wonder like, I know that sometimes people will, you know, they want their kids to become the doctor or the lawyer or whatever. But I really feel like people have opened up to the options beyond college. And just listening to some of the presidential candidates talk about the student loan crisis, and this and that, and I've talked to people that had asked him, Why did you pick college? And they were like, Well, it's because my guidance counselor? Yeah, it's like, but how did you end up with 100 grand in debt in like a journalism degree? Like, what were you planning? What were you thinking you could do with that? And the answer is, they really weren't. They were just kind of going along there. So

Jeremy Perkins  28:41

they're supposed to be doing

Unknown Speaker  28:42

Yeah, and what? And I remember my guidance counselor's trying to tell me that too. And I mean, let's be honest, most framers don't end up with an Instagram account on and you know, right for a trade magazine. So I've been pretty fortunate as far as that goes. But I think that, I know that one thing that a lot of my followers on Instagram, I get messages, a lot of more people that are not in construction at all. And what they're just fascinated by it for the same reason that we grew up watching norm. I mean, my goal, my I would have loved to have been norm when I grew up the idea of just working with wooden tools. And so I think people are super interested in that. And now they realize that it's not what you see on HGTV, there's a lot that goes into building a house and wiring a house and plumbing a house and then our equipment when it goes down. We're not diesel mechanics. But those guys got to know their thing. And so I think people are maybe a more open to the amount of knowledge you have to have to be in any one of those given trades. Like I'm not, I'm not a mechanic never been interested. There's every time I talked to a guy that is I'm amazed at how much they know.

Jeremy Perkins  29:46

I picked up on what you said. And I thought for me, I thought that this was one of the biggest trade problems was the fact that inadvertently, the older generation pushed there and that's why I asked do you want your kids to go on to trade and I think that for for our fathers, or grandfathers, they didn't want us to go in the trades, because there was that prospect of going to college. And, and doing more with your life, as advertised, if you if you will. And for a while that was true, but then it became oversaturated like it like to be honest with you, if we pull everybody into the trades now and forget about college, the trades are going to be oversaturated. So I agree there's this balance, but for you know what, let's call it the 80s 90s and early 2000s, we pushed everybody away from the trades because I want my son to be a doctor or I want my daughter to be a lawyer or, or what have you. And, you know, I saw in the military, I saw that there was a grant that the military became a little bit more efficient. So so the numbers, the the quotas that they needed became less, but it was still hard to find people to get into the military. Because it was like, No, I don't want my son or daughter to go to battle. And, and there's that aspect of it, but I think it was the whole parents or grandparents wanted more for their children. And they thought they were doing right by them, in turn has created this huge void in the trades, which is in turn made. Being in the trades are more lucrative business. Yeah, yeah. So I think, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker  31:30

Well, my dad was, you know, I, like I said he grew up on a farm in North Dakota, he put himself through college. Yep. And then that was like, What 1970, maybe late 1969. He did his year, 18 months in Vietnam. Yeah. And he could join as an officer because he was a college graduate in accounting. But he never pushed any of us three. So of the three of us, my brother, myself, and my sister, my sister took enough schooling to do like, medical coding. And she makes good living, she can work from home, which has been great during the pandemic. Yeah, my brother, you know, we both got their A's with accounting, but really, that was, you know, it's like what really did I need an intro to philosophy to become an accountant, but you know, you take the class because you need a humanities credit. Yeah. And and some of it's interesting, but I'm, I'm just glad that my parents, I don't really care what anybody does, personally, yeah, just do what you enjoy doing and work hard at it. And what I find is, is that, oftentimes, you don't really like necessarily what you want and what you thought you would. But once you get good enough at it, you enjoy it. So like, I love reading lawyer books, and watching shows like that. I could have never handled the workload to become a lawyer, but I sure love watching it. And same thing with a doctor. But then you see a lot of those guys, on the weekends, they're out working with their hands, and they kind of are kind of wishing that they weren't in an office and high pressure and things. So I know, there's just as far as the trades go, now, how do you get kids in high school, to see that as more than just sweating in the sun or working in the mud in the winter. And I don't know how you do that. I like the idea of more women in the trades, because they have their unique perspective. But a lot of the guys in the trades, I don't think I'd want my daughter or my sister working around. So there's still a lot. But there's a lot of big issues there that still need to be tackled. But I love seeing some of these apprenticeships. And young women going into the trades. And I follow him on Instagram. And it's like they've got so much Moxie, they go for it. And it's like, that's good. Because when I look at it, it some of the trades in Europe, there, there do seem to be more women or like Australia, New Zealand.

Jeremy Perkins  33:40

And there's a ton.

Unknown Speaker  33:42

Yeah, and but I also noticed that like, it seems like they have more respect for those things that everybody has kind of a uniform for. They're like, watch these British detective shows. And you see even guys working in like longshoreman and women, and they have kind of a uniform and they look more professional, the police have a different look to them in Europe. And, you know, there's, I don't know, I would love to see more of that happen here. Where I think if we treated ourselves with a little bit more respect, we use better language, we had good behavior on the job sites, then maybe more women would feel comfortable going into the trades because they know they're going to be treated properly. And if that's the case, then people aren't afraid to come onto the site interact with the trades, like it would just once the respect level went up, I think more of us would would be willing to do it and not feel like we were stepping down in life, so to speak

Jeremy Perkins  34:29

well on that and that's and that's what it is. I mean it to be to be a framer, you know, my, my, my short suit is mathematics and you know, I still count on my fingers to count all the lines on a on a ruler and no, but, you know, that is there's a lot of skill to watch you do from angles to everything and and people need to realize that that we're you know, just as skilled as something else and but knowing that You need to carry yourself with that degree of respect. So yeah, you're right, you need to, you need to respect yourself in what you do. And, you know, I know that the, in the in the automotive industry, we tried to change our name and I don't necessarily like it, but I kind of have to go along with it just because it's to bring the the trade up, we went from mechanics to automotive technicians, and I understand why we did it. I personally like being called a mechanic, it's just easier, you're not going to drop your car off at the automotive technicians, you're going to drop it off at the mechanic, however, I see what they were going, you know, we deal with computers, electronics, you know, circuit boards, to, you know, very sensitive stuff. And so the days of just hitting it with a hammer and it working are long gone. And I think we're all as a trade trying to get over that stigma. And and you're right, you know, we're trying to weed out the bad eggs and but with everything everybody has, yes, yeah. You know, so But you're right. I love seeing females in the trade. It's awesome. They do bring a different dynamic. They're very good with their hands. I mean, animal trades, I we did a podcast with it. And, and you know, her I'm, like, enthralled with with watching her on Instagram, oh, my goodness, all the all the projects she does. But not only just the projects, how she handles her day is actually the most impressive part. I can't organize my day in the way that she does. Right? So, but that's, that's been pretty, that's been pretty interesting. But, you know, kind of moving along, I wanted to see, what are you? What are you doing a project or build or something you've been excited about something you've done in the past, that was super cool. I kind of want to kind of want to see what you've done that that is like above and beyond or something that you want to get into later.

Unknown Speaker  36:49

You know, when I was when I was really like, on the forums every night learning things from these guys, every day was like kind of a new experience. Yeah, I'm going to try this. And we had an opportunity to build a circular set of stairs. And we did and it was super cool. There's a lot of work. And or we're going to try this kind of roof or somebody you know, pre cuts all the rafters and hips and they gets up there and assembles it and there's all these things that just didn't even know were possible. Now I just enjoy, when things go smooth, like it's everything's become more complicated. Where we're building now it takes almost two weeks to get an inspection as opposed to next day, which makes it much more difficult to schedule things like concrete, or especially when the weather turns and you're just like, we don't know what the weather's gonna be like in two weeks, but so it's things like that, that just have made it a little bit more tedious. So I just enjoy, if I go out and I just clean up or sweep at the end of the day, I really find a lot of pleasure in that and just things going smooth, I don't even care what I'm doing. I just like when it's done and it's went well and we're just um, we keep our as a company we try to all live fairly simply and not have tons of debt. And you know, just because we all want to go camping, we don't all run out by campers, no, my dream but but we try to keep it pretty, pretty simple. So that we don't have to work too much. Like we still work for weeks, but we don't get our non work hours can be non work we can we can take a drive around the state and go take pictures or we can spend time with the nieces and nephews or we can sit in the backyard and read a book or, and just not be consumed with work. So we're as a company and the employees are all kind of the same way. It's just keep it it's a means to an end. But we all really enjoy what we're doing. It's fun to operate an excavator or a forklift and it's fun to lift a wall and and so we find joy and work within it's not the only thing in life so

Jeremy Perkins  38:48

well I mean, that's that's a cool way of looking at it too. I mean, I've actually talked with a ton of people and they you know it's been it's been this car they've been working on or whatever and I think for you, you know summing it up it's it's being able to essentially enjoy the downtime or the simple things versus versus end your day is consumed by cool builds and projects and the more enticing thing is actually being able to enjoy life out of work because you're right i do know a ton of guys that there Go go go from six in the morning to nine o'clock at night have broken homes and what have you because they're chasing the dollar and they're making a pretty penny but you know, at the end of the day what's what's lifelike you know, yeah, and I think that that you're right, I mean, that's a huge builder project in its own its own right.

Unknown Speaker  39:39

Well, yeah, cuz my parents just celebrated their, let's see, was it their 50th it was, and we celebrated our 20th Yeah, and my sister and brother in law, it was their 20th and August and my brother and his wife, it was their 18th and June. So I was fortunate dad, never. I mean he worked evenings as the builder he would be on site during the day. And, and make phone calls and things at night. But it was never like, that's all he did. It was a stay at home mom. And so all of us as a family are very close. And I it my brother and his little girl, Alice is the cutest I have never and I know everybody says that in their head. They're all it's all true. But I was even thinking like tonight, like I have not gotten to see Alison a week, I need to go over and see Alice, she's only two. And her little squeaky voice. And it's like, those are the moments that Yeah, work and you could put more money in the bank. But I don't know, I'd rather just spend time with the family and, and we live in such a beautiful state and Washington, I tell you what, that's the project I would love if if somebody would just start a GoFundMe page so that I could have enough money just to travel the country and take pictures, that would be my my thing. But getting out and seeing we're here in between the Olympic Mountains in the Cascades. If we go over the Cascade Mountains in eastern Washington, it's very agricultural, which has its own beauty. And it's like in within about three or four hours, we can see all of it. And so it's just, I don't know that that I guess that would be the cool project is just spending time with the family and hanging out and seeing the wonders of creation.

Jeremy Perkins  41:07

That's cool. That's cool. And and, you know, ton of respect to that. I mean, I think that the regular nine to five sometimes can offer that. And I think that the the trades are becoming a little bit more innovative. So you know, for some of the trades that are seasonal, I think it's good to make your 20 3040 $50,000 in a couple of months and then be able to snowmobile for the winter or whatever. Yeah, I think I think that you can make it work in in whatever you want to. So, you know, for somebody building their off time, I think that's great to try to figure out what your on time is going to be interesting enough. I did watch one episode about your tool belt. And I like to get into you know, if I'm a new frame are coming into the industry, and mom and dad are going to get me a tool belt and stock it up or I am or whatever, run me through some of the basic, basic things that we want, whether it's a speed square, or whether it's, you know, nail puller what what's what, what are we going through on on your tool belt? You know, the joke is that anybody going into the trades carries way too much. Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker  42:13

that guy will have everything you need to borrow it all there, the guy that trains me, I never could understand why he didn't really carry anything. Yeah, it was like, but now as I've gotten older, it's like I don't need that stuff. And if I need to, I'll just keep it in the buckets relatively close. So I would say hammer speed square pencil tape measure nail puller, we pull a lot of nails. And I make the joke that we really pull more nails using our hammer than we actually drive nails. nail guns. And then I would say the construction calculator.

Jeremy Perkins  42:45

That was interesting. And I you know, I haven't been in the building industry much. And for me, that was an interesting piece, the fact that you pulled out a calculator. I don't know how many framers out there have calculators on there. So that was kind of an interesting and interesting piece. I mean, why why did why do you carry it?

Unknown Speaker  43:06

So the guy that I've learned from he didn't we have this little solar powered scientific calculator if we needed to run any, like square foundation as an example, you know, run a pipe Adrian theorem and or, you know, there's ways around that. I just found that the construction calculator and working feet and inches. I don't want to like mentally I don't want to divide things in half. Because if you get it wrong, it's going to go sideways, and take so much time to fix. Yeah, just use the calculator work in feet and inches for us or metric if you're the rest of the world. Right? Is that true? But it to me it's a tool. So I'm not using a handsaw. I'm using the power saw. And a calculator to me is the same. It's It's my brain. I understand the guys that still like to run everything longhand, so that they remember how to do it. The problem is, is that time is money. And if I can get that in four keystrokes, but it takes you three minutes to do it longhand, I kind of feel like that's a waste of time, I could do that stuff at home this time. Time is money on the site. You can't just charge a customer more so that you have the pleasure of doing division, you know, belong in and then multiplying times 16 to get around a number. Well, the calculator

Jeremy Perkins  44:18

going No, I was I was just saying when you were setting up your stairs, it was pretty interesting that the calculator actually set your points for you for your rise in your run. And yeah, and

Unknown Speaker  44:27

that's exactly where I was going. Is that because it keeps track of the accumulated error in the rounding? is it's more accurate. And some guys say oh, that's, you know, don't worry about that big deal. And I agree with them, but depending on what you're doing, if you have 18 risers and treads and you're off to 16 that's an inch and an egg, right? I didn't need to be off that much. And yes, but you got to account for pencil thickness and all that stuff as you if you step off like the old school and and usually it doesn't matter and it just It's not a big deal. But sometimes it does. And so the process I showed in that video is just to me, it's very efficient, you're less likely to make mistakes. But you do have to pay the cost of the calculator. So you know, once a year, they get wet and die or the forklift, and we have amazon prime and tear the next day. So yeah, no, it's just it's a power tool, I guess is what oh,

Jeremy Perkins  45:21

and that's good. And I think I think for guys to, especially in this trade, to be able to understand mathematics and and and how to run a calculator. I mean, hell, you can even use your phone. Now, you don't even necessarily have a calculator.

Unknown Speaker  45:37

No, in fact, there's an app called build calc for iPhone, or iOS and Android, that it is fantastic. But the problem with using my smartphone is I don't see it as well on the sun. And yeah, I just prefer that the calculator from the construction master calculated industries, because it's very tactile, I don't have a smaller screen, I can see it. And it's not so expensive, you know, it's like 50 or 60 bucks, that if I break one a year, it's totally worth it. Whereas if I did the same thing by pulling my phone out every time I needed to divide or figure out a radius or something, I'm just increasing the likelihood that's going to get damaged, and it's just not as rugged. Also, it probably is, but it's just more expensive. And you don't want to just don't want to break it.

Jeremy Perkins  46:21

Yeah, yeah. So for me when I was in, and I'm moving in a different direction right now, for, for me when I started Instagram and started this podcast and doing what I'm doing currently. The reason why I did it was as I was, I was kind of I kind of hit a wall, I was in the doldrums, if you will about about my trade. I've been in whatever 15 plus years now, and talking with people in other trades, I realized that that's kind of a mark, like, you've learned, you've learned a lot. And now you you've kind of plateaued and you're like, what's next, and for me, the podcast, the Instagram, the the passing on the learning was the thing that changed my career, what has changed your career, saying?

Unknown Speaker  47:09

Yep, as you're saying that it's like preaching to the choir. I am the guy that taught me he had a system that worked. It worked well. And it worked every time. Yeah, that kind of drives me nuts. Because I'd want to try all this new stuff. You know, I'm learning all this. You know, I didn't know that you could figure out split pitch roofs and all this stuff. And guys made it so easy for me to learn this guy. Let's try it, Dave. And he was at that 15 year, 20 year point, right now, I think exactly the same age that he was. And I feel the same way where I just kind of want to coast. But the social media side has kept it interesting, where it's like, oh, somebody had a question on that. And we're doing it tomorrow, I'll just put the camera up there. Or, you know, this is how I use my calculator for calculating stairs, I'll just clamp the GoPro to the end, and show it and it keeps it interesting. And it also what we find is that when we do have those new guys, now we've got a video record where it's like, watch this on your off hours, and it will put things into context. And you'll you'll kind of get up to speed quicker. But I'm totally with you where it was like, I don't know, I'm getting a little stagnant. Right. And this just keeps it I think it just kind of delays the inevitable. We'll see what the next thing is that kind of puts the spring back in the step. But for sure, it's been the specifically Instagram, I'm doing YouTube just because it's longer form. And YouTube is so quick, like, you know, I post a video today and by Friday, no one will remember it. It's hard to find and and so it's very, very short attention span on it. Yeah,

Jeremy Perkins  48:33

I and and I know it's funny talking to a lot of people that have mixed beliefs on Tick Tock and I'm not going to go into the political side or the beliefs in it. But if you do, it was kind of a new eye opener for me because you're able to post it's kind of a little bit more creative because you got essentially 60 seconds. So you know, what can you get out there in it's your elevator pitch if you will, like what can you get out there really quick if you're in front of somebody and you're like I need to sell my product you know? And so how can you educate somebody very quickly and it's become Wow, it's become this this amazing platform granted, it's funny and there's a lot of other stuff on it and that's kind of the majority of it but it is funny to try to keep up with a lot of the a lot of the different platforms because for me you know i Facebook was actually it was my space was the first oh yeah you know way back but then it was but then it was Facebook and Facebook was kind of the the big meat and potatoes but now it's become stagnant. I mean my parents are on every and I'm not saying that in a bad way. love you mom and dad. I'm just saying that it's it's become more of a social circle if you will. And and now with Instagram, it's more informative, and whatever you have LinkedIn for if you want to put your resume out there and what have you, you have Tick Tock if you want to have a laugh, I mean, the possibilities are endless. Trying to keep up with all that it's been