Billy Kunelius

Eric Girouard  0:00  

This is Bucket, a weekly podcast for people who work in the trades and construction that aren't just trying to survive, but have the ambition and desire to thrive. The opportunity in the trades and construction is absolutely ridiculous right now. So if you're hungry, it's time to eat. We discuss what it takes to rise from the bottom to the top with people who are well on their way and roll up their sleeves every single day.

Jeremy Perkins  0:28  

All right, on this episode of bucket talk, we have Billy Cornelius. He is our timber sports athlete. We just signed him this year. Hell of a guy, but we're going to go deep into the world of nurseries and forest management and then on to the world of timber sports. Billy, welcome.

Billy Kunelius  0:49  

Yeah, thanks. Jeremy, glad to be here.

Jeremy Perkins  0:52  

That's awesome. That's awesome. So you joined us early this year. You came down to the BRUNT garage. We talked about doing a timber sports sponsorship, long time BRUNT supporter. We jumped into that world of of you know, from woodsman's day up in Freiburg to the steel championship out in Milwaukee and but one of the cool things we never really got to dive into is your day job and how you got into it kind of go as far back as you know, high school, childhood, how you how you chose this path, and what you do on a daily basis,

Billy Kunelius  1:32  

yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. So yeah, it's kind of funny. I kind of came to forestry and timber sports, kind of in a pretty indirect way. And so early on, you know, I mean, I grew up like, basically living outside all the time, out in the woods, you know, hunting, fishing with my dad. You know, pretty much outside all the time. You know, I always remember, I think it was when I was either eight or nine, I saved up my allowance money, and I went down to the hardware store and I bought myself a little hatchet, and, you know, and I went out and I cut my first tree down, right? And I, like, had a journal, and I actually wrote about that in my journal. I was like, Oh, I bought an ax, and today I cut a tree down. That was like a big thing for me. But, you know, growing up, I actually got into agriculture, helped a lot of buddies do haying and stuff, you know, in my teenage years. And then when I graduated high school, you know, like I wasn't about just going to college, right? Like most kids just go to college. And I was like, I really don't know what I would go to college for. So, you know, I'm just going to go out and I'm going to work, you know, because at that point, I just didn't really get the point of why you would want to go to college. Yeah, so I actually went and worked on a dairy farm for about four and a half years, milking cows, you know, helping with all the crop work, you know, anything on the farm. And after about four, and a half years, you know, the farmer was like, hey, you know, this is, like, the maximum of what I can pay you. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, like, well, that's not going to be enough to live on. And, you know, at that time I was also, had gotten into maple sugaring on the side, you know, and was doing a couple 100 taps on my own, you know, and selling the syrup. And so had a big interest in maple sugaring. And so I was like, Well, I was like, Maybe I should go back to college. And started kind of looking at some different college stuff, and found a forest technology program down at the University of New Hampshire, just an Associate's program, and, you know, and I was like, Wow, that really, really seems interesting. Like, you know, I can learn more about trees and maybe tie it into maple sugaring. So I wrote a email to the professor, chatted with him, and ended up signing up to go to college. So there I was, freshman in college in 2008 at the age of 22 I think you know so both the time most kids would be graduating from college. I was just starting, so it was an interesting experience being in with a bunch of 18 year olds, but, but yeah, so I went and studied forestry there at the University of New Hampshire, and then during that time, also got. Uh, hooked up with the una woodsman team there, and that's kind of where my start of timber sports came about. And, you know, we could probably touch on

Jeremy Perkins  5:09  

that a little bit later. Now, that's now, that's crazy. I want to unpack a few things early on. Yeah, one of the now we haven't touched, like, the early days, because, like, so my kids are looking at, like, 4h or the FFA, the FFA programs, and like, the stuff early on. And I, I think there's a lot of parents that are listening to this and like, how do I get my kids involved in agriculture or livestock? Were you involved in any of those programs going up like, you know, you said you had an affinity for agriculture and that that way. But like, How'd you, how'd you go pursue that as a as a young child, was it just through, like, outdoor management with, like, hunting and fishing, or was it more than that? Yeah, um,

Billy Kunelius  5:55  

no, I was, I was never part of 4h or FFA or anything like that. I was actually, I went to public school through third grade, and then I was actually home schooled fourth grade all the way through high school. Okay, you know, so a little bit of a different situation there. But yeah, I never really did any 4h or anything. But through the home school community, a lot of those folks were, were more into agriculture up here. So some of our close friends, you know, their boys were just a couple years older than me, and they all had, you know, holy and deep tractors, and they were out doing haying and, you know, driving old Chevy single axle dump trucks. And, you know, loading hay in those so, yeah, got in with them. And that was kind of how I got into the farming. And, yeah, you know, just thought it was really good. I mean, it's, I've always been someone who I work hard. You know, I'm not someone to just sit around on the couch, and hard work has always entertained me, and you know, it's what draws me to most of the things that I do is that it's a lot of hard work.

Jeremy Perkins  7:18  

Yeah, another thing that I wanted to bring up was a lot of people talk about not going to college because college is a waste of time, but what a lot of people don't realize is up here, humane, you know, unh, and then obviously, there's a lot of those in the upper Midwest And and out west, but there's a lot of agriculture programs. There's a lot of, you know, livestock management programs through these, through these colleges, and I actually know a couple of buddies of of cow farmer friend of mine got into the science side of of cows, and that ended up working for a company called IDEX, and dealt in in cow management and what have you, and that, and that worked alongside with what he did at home, managing a herd and and producing beef cows. So that was pretty cool to see that like, hey, you know, maybe a traditional college route might not be the the way for you, but there are a lot of ag programs and a lot of livestock management programs that are that are at some of these colleges. So definitely something to keep an eye out for. If that's, if that's the interest you want to go.

Billy Kunelius  8:36  

Yeah, no, for sure, definitely. And let me just jump back just a second to 4h and FFA, while I wasn't involved, you know, actually, now with my job, I kind of get some involvement with 4h and, you know, I I really support, you know, 4h FFA as as like, a way to get, get kids into agriculture, get them into the outdoors, and they also have such a wide array of programs that even go beyond agriculture, right? It's delving more into electronics and stuff like that. So those groups are definitely great, yeah, and then, and then with college, you know, yeah, there's a lot of great colleges out there, you know, that have technical, more outdoorsy, or, you know, mechanic type, you know, positions and programs that can help direct you in the right way. You know, that was one of the things that really interested me about the University of New Hampshire, and so I actually went to the Thompson school, right, which is their their associates program. And so the forestry program there, they've kind of altered it a little bit since I've been there. But when I was there, you know, it's a two year program. Required you to do an internship in the summer in between the two years, so you're getting practical experience. And you know, one of their big things that they touted was, for every two hours that you spent in the classroom, you were spending four hours outside in a lab, actually applying what you're learning. And it was, it's one of those things of in the general forestry and logging sawmill industry here in New Hampshire and New England, most companies would rather hire someone with an associate's degree out of the Thompson school than they would someone out of a four year program, just because someone could graduate from the Thompson school, and they've done so much hands on lab work that they could go and basically go to work the first day that they show up on a new job, whereas a four year student, a lot of times, spends a lot more time actually learning stuff in the classroom, but they haven't gotten the chance to apply that. So that's, that's what I love about the Thompson school, and about some of those community colleges and smaller programs, is it allows you to apply, and then you can translate that into the workforce much quicker. Alright,

Jeremy Perkins  11:24  

there's, there's a part of your upbringing that I really want to get into. And for those who have been up in the Northeast, the New England area, and I don't know how far it goes across the country, but around this time of year, you'll see tubes running from tree to tree and, like, what the heck is that? Well, they're actually tapping the maples to then draw the, I don't even know what you call is it just because you boil it down into sugar, but yeah, so, so the SAP runs down, gravity fed to, usually, like a sugar shack, or something like that, where it's collected and then boiled off. And so up here, it's maple syrup, and I've always wanted to do it, but never understood the process. How'd you get into that that's like, I mean, that's something I definitely want to do. I tap the wrong tree or something, to be

Billy Kunelius  12:20  

honest. Well, you come up and identify it for you. Yeah? So, so just a quick correction, maple sugaring season is actually in the spring, not in the fall, but once the leaves fall, you can see a lot of the tubing and stuff, so it kind of catches your eye, but you can't see it in the summertime.

Jeremy Perkins  12:40  

Thank you. Thanks for Thanks for covering my ass.

Billy Kunelius  12:44  

But, um, but yeah, no. I mean, I got started in that again through the homeschool community. So we had some friends who did some maple sugaring. And I think, you know, geez. I mean, that's a long time ago now, but I can't remember if we went over to their place and saw them doing it, and I got interested that way, yeah, what exactly it was, but, um, you know, I started small, got a little flat pan, I think is like a two by two flat pan, and had it up on some cinder Blocks and just lit a fire underneath it and had about 10 trees tapped and, you know, boiled down syrup. And I think the one thing with maple sugaring is that you either try it and you're like, this is way too much work. I'll just go buy it at the store, or you try it, and then you're like, This is really cool. And then the problem is, is that you continue to get bigger. And so that's what happened with me, you know, I started with 10 taps that maybe lasted one or two years, then I jumped up to 25 and then I jumped up to 100 and then, you know, I went out and bought, like, an actual professional evaporator, you know, and built myself a little sugar house, and then I jumped up to, like, 150 and then 200 taps, right? So, it's like, it's one of those things that it's like, you just get the bug, and it's, and it's one of those processes where, you know, it takes a long time, and that's, that's the thing, right? With a little flat pan, like what you would probably do in your backyard, it would take, you know, it takes a long time, because it takes at least 40, you know, usually 40 to 50 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. So most people just doing a few taps in their backyard aren't even going to make a gallon of syrup, you know? But then I'm like, Well, I can be sitting up here for eight hours on my Saturday, or probably more like 10 or 12, honestly, and I could make a quart of maple syrup. Up. Or I could be sitting out here with a big rig and lots of taps, and I could sit out here for 10 hours, and I could make 10 gallons of syrup, and I'm like, Well, what, what sounds more efficient to me, you know? So it's like, might as well get bigger. That's, that's,

Jeremy Perkins  15:16  

it's, it's, it's funny, because that's where I am with like, egg production right now is, like, you know, a couple of chickens wasn't enough, so then we, like, went all in, and now we have more eggs than we know what to do with, and we're giving them away. And it's, it's wild, because I could only imagine that that's where you, you were at with, with sugaring, is, like, you're just giving out gallons. There's not No pancakes for you to put them on, right? Yeah,

Billy Kunelius  15:42  

yeah. But then it was funny, because then I ended up going to college, yeah, and I kind of studied forestry because of my interest in maple sugaring. And then I was so busy at college, I ended up not maple sugaring. I sold all my stuff, and I've never done it since then. But at the same time, I've thought about it a couple times and I'm like, it's gonna be the same situation, right? I'll be like, Oh, I'm just gonna do 20 taps, and then the next thing, I'll have 1000 you know,

Jeremy Perkins  16:15  

yeah, exactly. So fast forward, you know, you graduated the Thompson school, and you're now in forestry management. What the fuck does that mean? Like, what is what is that involved? Like, I'm just trying to understand it. Like, are you planning out for us? You know, I know a little bit my wife was in the hardwood flooring industry, and she did, you know, their wood products came from Pennsylvania, which was like, my cat joined the podcast the so it was funny, because they talk about, like, deforesting and, and, you know, how, how it's a bad thing, and, but a lot of these, a lot of These sustainable forests, they actually have a plan for Regenerative growth, for it to be, you know, a lot of a lot of people that own Woods will find out that, like, you can put it in agriculture zoning, and then you could have, like, a forest management plan, and there's, like, different degrees. Like, just because it's a forest full of trees, doesn't mean it's a healthy forest. And I'm sure you can go into that and and what you do on a daily basis, yeah,

Billy Kunelius  17:28  

yeah, no. I mean, you hit a lot of the nails on the head there, and summed it up. But yeah. I mean, we could do two podcasts on this easy, but I'll sum it up into a few minutes. But, um, but yeah, yeah. So kind of moving out of college. So I had done an internship with a logging company who also had an on staff forester, and so I worked with their forester for that summer in between, actually worked with them a little bit during my senior year at college, and when I graduated, he offered me a full time job, you know, as their second forester. So I was like, perfect. I mean, you know, I'm graduating college, and here's someone offering me a job. So I jumped in. And so, yeah, so that was doing Private Forestry there. And so, yeah, what we do is we, we'd work with landowners, right? So landowners would contact us, and and the company I was working for was kind of sort of like a one stop shop, right? So they would talk to me or the other forester as kind of the land management team, and we would meet with them, you know? And the first thing is, is that every landowner has goals for their property, right? So, you know, it's just getting to know the landowner, getting to know their land, and being like, you know, what are your goals? You know, are your goals to generate like, solely generate revenue from your land, from producing timber? Is it that you know you're into deer hunting or turkey hunting, and you want to promote wildlife habitat, so that you have more deer on your property? You know, do you want hiking trails? Because you like to just hike around your land. But it's also not that simple, right? Because it's not just most landowners have multiple goals, right? So a lot of times it would be all like, I want to make money, I want to enjoy my land, I want to have wildlife. But the cool part is, that proper forest management already kind of does that, right? So then we would work with them to kind of develop a plan. You know, a lot of times we would write a full forest management plan for them. And so, like a full forest management plan and crew includes a timber. Inventory. So we would actually go out and do what we call timber crudes, and you're taking samples across the property in the in the grid format, and then you can run that through computer software, and it will expand it out across the acreage and tell you, you know, okay, you have X amount of white pine, X amount of red oak, you know, on your property, right? And then you can kind of use those to develop long term management goals, you know, because that's the one thing with timber, is that it's, it can be viewed as a crop, but it's a long rotation crop, right? Where you're planting corn, you're harvesting corn the same year. If you're planting a tree, you're harvesting that tree in 100 years. You know, so kind of working with the landowner to develop a plan for a timber harvest, and then we would actually go out mark all the trees that are going to get cut, layout, skid trails for the logging equipment, you know, work out all the pricing for the different timber species with the landowner, and then supervise the timber sale. You know, while it was going on with our logging crew there,

Jeremy Perkins  21:17  

that's crazy, because I had 10 acres out back that's in forest that was in a forest management plan. It was not kept up with which it should have been, but it was not. We actually took it out of that forest management plan so that it allows us to do what we want. There's like tax penalties if you end it early. That being said when we had inquired about expanding our pasture space. Obviously that meant, you know, cutting into the woods and and getting that taken out. What was funny is, is we consulted somebody in forest management, and they, they came out, and they're like, you know, people, a lot of people think that just because you have a forest, that it's, you know, somebody would come in clear cut it make, you know, furniture out of it. He goes, you'd be hard pressed to get a pulp truck in here to take it for free. Like, that's how much shit wood and shit growth we had. Yeah, in the back there, even though it looks like this lush environment, it's actually a, it was a poorly kept up Forest Plan. And, you know, it's hard for animals to be in there because it's, you know, it's thorny or Bramble, the trees are half dead because, you know, other tree growth is, is, you know, taking the nutrients and and resources away from them. So, you know, with everything, like with with hunting and fishing, there's, there comes a degree of of management to then allow the species to grow, be healthy and have enough resources in that area.

Billy Kunelius  22:55  

Yeah, no, exactly. And, and, kind of like you were saying, you know, it's, it's so funny. So many people like, see a big pine tree, right? And they're like, well, that's a huge pine tree. Like, that's got to be worth a ton of money. But it's like, well, you don't realize the knots and the limbs on that thing are this big. So it's like, when you send it to a sawmill, and they go to mill it out, you know, how is that going to make a board without falling apart? Because the knots as wide as the board is, you know, so there's, there's lumber grade standards, and so, you know, it's, it's funny how many times you would go to someone's property, right? They'd be, like, I got all this, like, huge, like, awesome, amazing timber. And you'd go there, and it would be on jump. But a lot of that is because of the history of New England, right? So, you know, back in, back in the 1860s so like, like, New Hampshire, for instance, right, right now, I think is 82 or 83% forested. You know, we're the second most forested state in the in the US, you guys, up in Maine, are the number one most forested state. You guys are like, 1% you know, yeah, if we're 82 you guys are 83 so you're, but, um, but the thing is, if you go back to the mid 1800s like 1860s it was exactly the opposite, right? Like New Hampshire would be 82% pasture, you know, because it was all sheep farming up here, right? It was too rocky. It was too rocky to tell, yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I can't believe how often I'm like, I'll be like, two miles out in the woods, like, like, just like, two miles out in the woods on this property, and there's a stone wall, yeah, you know? And if there's a stone wall, it was a pasture or a field at one time. And I'm like, how the heck like. Like, was someone way out here, like grazing sheep me and my

Jeremy Perkins  25:06  

conversation, so my property was like 1790 something, right? And, and I think it's 1795 I always forget the date, but we have rock walls on rock walls on rock walls around the back. And it's funny that, like now, I don't want to get into the whole politics of of you know, trees and not trees. But what was an interesting fact was, we got to see some old town pictures, and it fields, as far as you can see, right? It was flat. It was grass. And, yeah, it was just interesting, because it's like, this was within the past, you know, couple 100 years, or 100 years, or whatever you want to whenever that changed over into tree growth and again, unhealthy, unhealthy, unmanaged forest, yup, yup,

Billy Kunelius  25:59  

yeah. And so that's what happens, is a lot of times old fields, if they're just left, right, they'll grow back into forest, but a lot of times, because it's so open, different things happen to the trees, right, like white pines will get white pine weevils, and then that's where you see the Multi leadered pine trees instead of just a single stem, you know? And that happens because the Pines getting too much sunlight, right? If it's shady, the pine weevils don't like it, so they won't be there. So it's just,

Jeremy Perkins  26:35  

what's that invasive species for the hemlock that grows underneath the white it's like,

Billy Kunelius  26:40  

yeah, Hemlock, Hemlock, wooly adelgid, yeah, yeah. So

Jeremy Perkins  26:44  

we, we've had to get our trees sprayed recently so that we could at least, you know, put it at bay, I guess, I guess it's a huge invasive species to Maine, and it could potentially eradicate that Hemlock as we know it, yeah. Now they're coming out with like hemlocks that are scientifically engineered to be resistant to the species, but up in the lakes region, which was interesting, they said, if the hemlock leaves the the Lakes Region, it'll have serious repercussions on the fisheries. And I was, I was, like, blown away. Like, the two didn't equate, like, forest water. Like, how the hell are these two equating? And, yeah, do you know anything? Why that the eradication of the hemlock would equate to, like, the fisheries population? Yeah.

Billy Kunelius  27:39  

So really, like in nature, like everything is connected, you know, and so everything that happens in a forest affects something else. And forests are actually really important for water quality. And so if, like, up there, you know, if there's a large component of pure Hemlock, right? So, like, it's just pure hemlock. There's no other soft like major softwood cover. If you were to lose all that, the first thing that would happen is that there would be a lot of warming going on on the soil, right? Because a conifer treaty, like a hemlock, keeps its needles 365 days of the year, and so provides shading on that ground. So that would be providing that. And then, so, you know, if you had hemlocks along, you know, and hemlocks like wetter spots, so you're going to have hemlocks along headwaters of streams, stuff like that, and then if you lose those now, more sunlight is hitting that those streams. And so that's raising the water temperature of the streams. Another thing, just for regular like water quality type stuff, is that softwoods are generally better for water quality than hardwoods are, you know, because oaks, like your oaks species, have higher tannins in them, you know. So the leaves have tannins, the trees have tannins, acorns have tannins. And so all that falls on the floor, falls on the forest floor, you know, kind of leeches in, and if gets into the water, can make its way down into the water stream, you know, so like down here around Manchester, New Hampshire, right? Like you think of Manchester, New Hampshire, big city, but their public water supply is a couple big reservoirs, and so they actually have, Manchester Water Works owns about, I think it's like six or 8000 acres around those watersheds that they manage with forest management to maintain the water quality of their reservoirs, you know. So how you manage your forests can really. Dictate your water quality, and you know, a whole host of other things as well. Wow, yeah, yeah,

Jeremy Perkins  30:10  

but on a daily basis, you're eating, breathing, sleeping, trees and and and now, now are you outside of timber sports? Are you active in the logging or anything like that, or is it more just the planning? And yeah,

Billy Kunelius  30:28  

at this point, is just the planning. When I was working Private Forestry for that company, I did do during the winter time, right when the snow is on the ground, it's a little harder to get out and do field work in the woods. So a lot of times I'd end up jumping in a skidder, or jumping in a slasher and processing wood on the landing, you know. So a lot of times in the winter, I'd end up jumping on a logging crew and, you know, helping out there, which I always loved. I love the opportunity to be able to get an equipment, you know, because at the end of the day, everyone loves to run big equipment. You know, you're running a skitter that nothing can stop. So

Jeremy Perkins  31:12  

I know a lot of machines, but I've never heard the term slasher before. And what is it?

Billy Kunelius  31:17  

Yeah, so slasher, it's also kind of like a crane. So if you've ever driven by a log yard, right where they're actually processing the wood. So a lot of logging crews are what we would call a whole tree operation, right? So they have the fellow Buncher that comes in and grabs the tree, cuts it, picks it up, lays it in the ground, puts it in a bundle. Then you have the grapple skidder, which would pull that whole hitch out to the water. But now you have those whole trees, and something's got to cut them up. So there's the there's the slasher machine, so it's a big like knuckle boom crane, and so that grabs it, and then it has a deliber, typically on the front. It'll all be set up on basically like a log trailer, or like a tractor trailer bed, right? And so it'll have a deliber on the front, and you can pull the trees through the delimer, and it'll automatically take all the limbs off. And then it'll have a big saw. It'll either have a big, huge harvester bar, like a chainsaw bar, or it'll have, we call them hot sods, but it's like a circular saw that run all the time, that you have it on, and then that has a measuring table. So you'll take the tree, pull it in, you know, you'll be looking at the log, right? Because your job is you're processing this into logs. So you have to know what the log specs are, and then you have to be able to look at that quickly and be like, yep, that's a saw log. Nope. This is a pallet log, you know. And then you pull it in for length, zip it off, you know, set that aside. And then, so you're just there processing, all day, processing pitches, and then when trucks are coming in and you're loading the trucks or running wood through the chipper to load the chip trucks, yeah, so it's fun, you know, it's a lot of swinging back and forth, and it's always crazy because, you know, it's, It's like an excavator, sort of, because you're sitting there, you have joysticks, but in a crane, you have foot pedals for rotating right so, you know, you hit your left foot, you'll turn left to hit the right foot to turn right. So I, like, never ran an excavator. I always, I learned how to run, you know, a log crane and a slasher and stuff. And then one day I had to rent an excavator to do some work at my house. And I was like, guys, like, you know how to run this? I'm like, Oh yeah, I've run all kinds of equipment, you know. And I get into thing, and I'm like, sitting out there, I'm looking like, I'm like, some city slicker, like, I'm just, y'all, I'm like, spinning around, and I'm like, you know, every time, because it's like, the operation to, like, open or close your grapple is, like, the Rotate for an excavator. So I'm like, sitting there, and I'm like, trying to, Ian, I'm like, just fighting with the excavator, because I'm like, I want to do this, and then I'm like, spinning to the side. It's like, oh, man,

Jeremy Perkins  34:22  

it's, it is funny. And I can't, I can't necessarily equate it to something, but it is funny that, you know, a lot of times it's easy to teach somebody who has no experience on something, because you don't have to unlearn what they a lot of times it's bad habits. But it could be a different machine, or what happens that's That's hysterical, because, like, you're you've learned one way to do something, and then you get into another piece of machinery that has similar controls, and they have different functions completely.

Billy Kunelius  34:53  

Yeah, yeah. With, with that, it's like, if, if you were ever on the landing or at a log. Yard, and someone got in a crane that had a lot of experience running an excavator, you always stood really far away, because the the control function to spin, or, you know, to spin the excavator, was the control function to open the grapple and drop whatever was in it, right? So you'd like watch someone who, like, always ran an excavator, and they like, pick a log up, and then they go to turn and they like, drop the log from, like, 30 feet up. You know, I was like, it's like, stand far away. Yo, nice. I was funny because I used to load trucks in the log yard at the office. And I always remember, you know, there was this Canadian trucker who came down. And, you know, Canadian truckers, like their their trucks are always just, like, completely mint. Like, This guy had hardwood floors in his truck, you know, like, it was always just spit polished and and I like, had, you know, I've done some crane work, but I hadn't low officially loaded any trucks yet, and he showed up one day, and I was the only one there, and I was like, Oh crap. And like, I was like, Well, my boss will be back soon. My boss, like, wasn't showing up. So finally, I'm like, I'm like, I can load you if you want, but I'm like, I haven't loaded a truck yet. You know? He's like, Oh, it'll it'll be okay. You know, I think it took me, like, two hours to load his truck with three tiers of logs. And, you know, he just sat there patiently, like he was a good guy. Like, like, over my whole career at this company, like him and I, we got to be really good friends, you know. But by the end of my time there, I could though it took me two hours, right? Like, two, two and a half hours the first time I loaded his truck. By the last by by the end of my career, I could load his truck in like, 25 minutes. You know, it's just crazy. Ian, he'd be like, he'd just park his truck next to the crane, and he'd go into the office and talk to the Secretary and, like, just let me load its truck like you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even watch me, you know, you just go, yeah, go ahead, load my truck. That's,

Jeremy Perkins  37:28  

well, that's, that's, that's some good insight into the the logging and and forestry management world. I had a unique experience with Billy. So Billy had invited us up to the Freiburg Fair, which is in Maine. And they have a, they have an freaking cat, they have a they have an awesome day, about 20,000 people. It's called woodsman's day. And you said upwards of 120 competitors. And, yeah,

Billy Kunelius  38:05  

this was a little old for 100 competitors there, yet in different

Jeremy Perkins  38:09  

disciplines, from, you know, you know, working with skitters to the log trucks to loading them, unloading them, um, Billy specialty is in the the world of acts work and saw work. And so run us through some of the stuff that you've done there, how you're how you're matching up to the competition, how long you've been in the industry, and maybe a little bit of insight on what exactly timber sports is, yeah, yeah, no,

Billy Kunelius  38:41  

definitely, yeah. So, so kind of one of the things is, yeah, I'm on the weekends when I'm not working in the woods, then then I go and chop wood for fun and get to call myself a professional lumberjack athlete. And yeah, so it's basically, you know, it's kind of a cool sport because it takes a lot of old traditional ways of, you know, the guys would have to fell trees or cutting trees or process them, right, and then putting them into a competitive format, you know. And we don't use traditional tools anymore, right? We've, we've developed tools specifically to do this faster and better, you know. So we're still using axes, we're still using cross cut saws and single box saws, but these things are designed specifically for racing, and we're really picky about the type of wood that we put them in, because if we were to hit a knot or something with one of those racing tools, we would destroy it, and then you're pretty much out of block. But yeah, yeah. I mean, timber sports is kind of not only a national. Thing, but it's also a worldwide thing. So, so

Jeremy Perkins  40:05  

what's the history of timber sports? I heard it it. It was kind of like an old pastime in logging camps,

Billy Kunelius  40:15  

yeah? So, basically, yeah, kind of got started, you know? I mean, guys sitting around, what do they do? They they challenge each other, right? So, you know, these guys are sitting around the logging camps on the evening or on a weekend, and they're like, oh, like, I bet I could chop through a log faster than you, or I bet I could saw through a log faster than you, you know. And then they'd be like, Oh, wow, I don't think so, you know. So then they do, okay, well, let's pull up two logs and let's go at this and, you know? So, so that's really how it got started. And then at some point, people decided, well, this could be entertainment, and let's bring it down to the county fair, you know. And that's kind of how it progressed from there. And then people were like, well, you know, we could make a specialized AX that, you know, you wouldn't want to swing all day in the woods, but like, for just racing through a single log. Could, you know, be way better, yeah, you know. And it's kind of funny, because, like, I guess, like, lumberjack sports is something that I feel like, you know, you really think, well, like this, this had to have started in the US, you know, with, like, lumberjacks and stuff, but, but it actually started in down in Australia, is where it started, right? And lumber camps down there is kind of where it got its original start. And then kind of progressed out from there, you know, came over to the US, came over to Canada. So,

Jeremy Perkins  41:48  

yeah, I know Ian asked you where your access came from, and they're actually not from the US, and they're not of a US style, yeah, give a little background on, on the style of AX you use, and and where, where it comes from. Yep,

Billy Kunelius  42:06  

yep, yeah. So there's, there's only think about four companies that make competitive racing axes, and pretty much all those companies are in either Australia or New Zealand, and so one of the most popular brands is called tuatahi, and they're out in New Zealand, and they just tend to have the best steel they've been around the longest, so they Know the tempering to get them just right? And, yeah. So most of our axes come from there. I actually buy them as blanks, you know, rough ground to the degree that I want. And then I'll actually send them to a guy out in New York, typically, that grinds, grinds, the axes. And then we'll put different different chisels, different different types of grinds and hollows behind those grinds, in order to to cut different wood, you know, because, because, depending on the angle of the ax and the edge of the ax and the relief behind that edge can all dictate how that AX will penetrate the wood, but then also dictates what's almost more important is how the AX comes back out of the wood. Because if you have an ax, it's cutting really deep and then, but then it sticks, and then you have to wrench it out every time it sucks all your energy out and it wastes a bunch of time.

Jeremy Perkins  43:49  

A while ago, I had asked, you know, an NASCAR driver, how much, how much when you want to win? How much is the car? How much is the driver? And if I remember correctly, I think, like, 80% of it is the car and how it's handling and the power and performance and and just how it's dialed in. 20% is the driver. I mean, I guess at that level, they're all talented. So, you know, obviously there's mix ups or whatever, but the majority is, like a 8020, split when it comes to using your AX, how much is the AX versus how much is the competitor? Obviously, there's a very physical aspect to it. Not saying that there's not a physical aspect in NASCAR. But would you say that having the AX, having a, you know, subpar AX, or a C level or B level acts would, no matter how good of a competitor you are, it's not going to run. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's

Billy Kunelius  44:48  

kind of a hard question to answer. It's, I mean, the equipment is very important. I mean, you can definitely. Elite tell like good equipment from bad equipment, but then the skill level of the competitor is also really important. So I would, I would really have to say maybe like a 5050, split, or even like 40% equipment, 60% operator, you know, even so, it's because, because you could take a really good AX, like I could take a really good ax and hand it to you, and I could take a really crappy ax and we could cut the same size block, and I'd still, well, you have water, yeah, yeah, totally sure.

Jeremy Perkins  45:53  

Beginners, lock No,

Billy Kunelius  45:57  

no, I bet I'd be done and you wouldn't even be on the on the second half of the log, yeah, I have

Jeremy Perkins  46:05  

to throw down one of these days. I have to embarrass myself. Dead, dead, dead, straight face. No, no.

Unknown Speaker  46:24  

Oh, that's great, you know, but

Billy Kunelius  46:25  

it's, it's the sport is, it's so much about the technique and the presentation, right? Whether, whether you're chopping, it's, it's how you, how you present the ax to the wood. You know, sound, it sounds like a weird term, but it's like, it's like a term in one word, Jack sports, right? It's like presenting the ax to the wood. And how you do that is going to dictate how that ass cuts, and it takes a lot to get that right, you know, and, and it's one of those things of people always think, Oh, the biggest guy is going to win, because the biggest guy is the strongest. And it's like, I can beat guys twice my size all the time, my technique and my precision and how I'm presenting the ax to the wood is better than their brute strength just trying to get the block off. You know, it's, it's not about strength. It's about, it's about being the most technical, really good.

Jeremy Perkins  47:35  

So we, we went over the entire gamut of what Billy does, from from forest management to logging in the early days to now timber sports and, and, you know, looking forward to next season. That was, that was wild. I enjoyed it thoroughly. It's, it's a nod to the old way. I mean, still seeing the horses all yoked up and, and, you know, pulling logs up there this, you know, the equipment side of things, like the precision that some of these guys with the logging trucks. And, I mean, there's some big boys running around too. And then, you know, and it's, it's all, it's all ages. I mean, there was some, there was some 80 plus out there. You know, still out there drop. They might not be the fastest, but you could see the technique, yeah, male, female, and then you guys collaborate too. There's, like, some of the saw races. There was male and female teams, yup. So that was super, super cool, little known fact, Billy, you hold the record with your wife for what?

Billy Kunelius  48:42  

Yeah. So we hold the record, the world record for two cuts in an eight by eight timber for Jack and Jill cross cut. So, hell yeah, yeah, we set that back in 2018

Jeremy Perkins  48:57  

so does that world

Billy Kunelius  49:00  

records or? No, it's just like a record book of lumberjack times. Yeah, it doesn't really get to the Guinness Book of World Records. But,

Jeremy Perkins  49:08  

yeah. Alright, alright. So if anybody wanted to learn more about the sport, where are these timber sport events held? Usually? Is it more in the north. Is it all around the country? What time of year? And then also, where can they find you? If they wanted to know more about the forestry or your path or kind of wanted to reach out to you? Yeah.

Billy Kunelius  49:33  

Yeah. So I mean timber sports events and Lumberjack events are really all over the country. You can find them in any neck of woods, and a lot of times there, you know, a lot of them will be at different fairs. You know, county fairs, state fairs, some competitions are big enough that they kind of host the competition as an individual event. And. Then other things are kind of attached on to that, you know. So there's some real big competitions in West Virginia and New York and Pennsylvania, you know, up here in the New England region, probably I would say a third to half of the fairs have lumberjack some sort of lumberjack competition at them. So it's a pretty broad range of events to be able to check it out at. You know, there's also the steel timber sports series, which, you know, a lot of you guys have probably seen on ESPN or ABC Sports. You know, in the past, you can also go to live events there and look them up online. Yeah, and then you can find me. The best place to find me is on Instagram, and my handle there is NH warmer, Jack, so, oh

Jeremy Perkins  50:56  

yeah. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Billy. I look forward to next season and and just hanging out with you. It's always a it's always a good time at these events. You're You're a pretty stand up dude and well respected in the community. Thank you very much for for taking this time to to dive into who you are and what you do. Yeah,

Billy Kunelius  51:14  

definitely anytime, and we'll set up that shopping event.

Jeremy Perkins  51:18  

And as a special thanks to our loyal listeners, we're giving $10 off your next purchase of $60 or more at BRUNT work where.com Use Discount Code bucket talk 10. That's bucket talk 10. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai