Jeremy Perkins  0:00  

Hey, this is Jeremy and you're listening to bucket talk powered by BRUNT. We're here with Tim Mueller, a pioneer builders, Tim has over 20 years experience framing houses listening as he shares insight into what he's learned over the years.

Tim Uhler  0:12  

This is bucket top weekly podcast where people who work in the trades and construction that aren't just trying to survive, but have the ambition and desire to thrive.

Intro  0:21  

The opportunity to trades and construction is absolutely ridiculous right now. So if you're hungry, it's time to eat. We discuss what it takes to rise from the bottom to the top with people who are well on their way and roll up their sleeves every single day.

Jeremy Perkins  0:40  

Today, we're here with Tim Mueller, a pioneer builders, he also has the Instagram handle awesome framers. Tim, welcome. Nice to be with you. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. So we're gonna dive into framing. You're a framer by trade, correct? Correct. Yep. And, you know, I wanted to get a little background on and how you came to be a framer? I mean, so my brother in law, he's a framer, by trade came over came over from Ireland. And, you know, that's kind of the things that he did over there was carpentry and, you know, it came to the states and, and did everything in New York City and the Northeast. How did you get started? Ah,

Tim Uhler  1:18  

so my dad started building in the late 70s. on his own, he worked for, like a production builder in the early to mid 70s. Yep. So I just grew up basically, with a hammer in my hand, I would drive around with him. Any tools that were laying around or blocks of wood, and I just nailed them together. It has just been in my blood. That's what I wanted to do. And I really enjoy it.

Jeremy Perkins  1:39  

That's awesome. So when when did you get started? Like, at what age did you jump into the business and and start doing the math and really working the job sites?

Tim Uhler  1:51  

I think, man, I was trying to think of this last week. I remember spending spring break and I think eighth or ninth grade whenever that Aerosmith album came out with Oh, I forget the name of that album now. But anyway, the young guy that I worked with, he was younger than me. He would just he would blast the truck radio all day long. We jump started at night. And just that was my spring break. Working in the rain. I remember hanging off top plates to hang facia and just being scared out of my mind. But I thought it was so cool to be with the guys that I just would use all my school breaks to just go out and work.

Jeremy Perkins  2:24  

So you're in the you're in the northwest, correct of the edge. Yeah, just west of Seattle. So I was funny because I was I was watching some of your your YouTube videos and things that we have for building up here is different for building that you have out there were snow loads and stuff like that. But you know, I was watching a, you put together a staircase and doing flooring, and you're talking about, you know, seismic activity. So that's that I thought that was pretty cool that you're building stuff has a lot is a little bit different than the Northeast code.

Tim Uhler 2:59  

Yeah, yeah. So in fact, one of the reps from Simpson strong tie came out today. And we were talking about that. So we're Seismic Zone D two, which is my brother always said, basically, what that means is we're going to get a big earthquake at some point, we just, they they predict like a 10% chance of the big one, you know, in the next 50 years. So we design around that. So it's not too complicated for us compared to California, but it's more hardware than I think a good chunk of the country sees, but in our particular spot here, West to Seattle, we're a very mild climate, we got lots of rain, not a lot of heat, not a lot of snow, obviously closer to the mountains, you do but we just, we just designed for that earthquake that might happen. Whereas the rest of the country has to design for that hurricane that will happen or that snow storm that will happen.

Jeremy Perkins  3:43  

So that's pretty cool. And and how do you how do you know I, I saw an episode where you were, were talking about how, you know, it's just being on the job and learning and then passing on the knowledge and, and trying to inform the next group of people coming up. But these are some big These are some big topics in the building industry that you talk about that? How do you how do you stay up on on your on all the information that you need to do to from from math to structure from engineering? I mean, as a framer? How do you stay current in your trade?

Tim Uhler  4:18  

That is a good question because almost none of us go to school for it. So what I find my dad was always a big subscriber to like all of the trade magazines, builder magazines, and his philosophy always was if you learn one thing that that subscription was worth it. So we've always done the trade shows and that kind of thing. So I grew up reading journals like construction. And then back in the early 2000s, probably 2003. I went to jail C's website one day and I was like, Oh, they have a construction forum. And that really, probably over like the next two or three years after that both five home buildings break time for him and jL C's forum just ended up being a place where a lot of guys from all over the country seemed to gather and just talk the trade. Yeah. And I learned a ton from that. So I would say the magazine, and then the author's all spent time on the forums. And it was almost real time feedback where you could ask a question and get it, you know, give it a go check my email to see if anybody responded. And so it was it was mostly that the magazines and then I guess, just the internet, lack of a better expression.

Jeremy Perkins  5:24  

So I saw, I want to ask you kind of a personal question. Did you did you go from high school into the trades? Did you go to college? Do Do you have another skill set?

Tim Uhler  5:32  

So the idea was both my brother and I, we did the Community College, the other smart enough to do Running Start I did two years after my senior year in high school. So we were actually at the community college together. Yeah, so we took like accounting and that kind of stuff. And I just did not like I was ready to be done with school. And he, he really enjoyed that kind of stuff. So he definitely gravitated more to the business side. And I just loved being hands on. So you know, once that two years is up, so I've got my a with accounting course, I can't remember any of it. But I just really loved being on the job site. So it's kind of a little bit of both. I didn't do the university thing, but got a little bit of education, a little bit more math, and in writing, which actually, in hindsight, now I realize just taking English 101 and 102, I had a good one or two teacher. And then when I got asked to start writing for the magazine was like, Oh, well, that was that was kind of a nice little turn of events. Training.

Jeremy Perkins  6:27  

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, because there's a, you know, from from dealing, you know, whether you're in a Ford customer facing role, being able to speak, read, write, actually just write legibly, is is always a plus in our industry. I mean, I have some great mechanics that, you know, that I've worked with in the past that when they wrote something down, you're like, what, what does, what does that say? And and it just, you know, it makes the job just a little bit harder. But it is nice to be polished, a little bit on on those

Tim Uhler  6:56  

skills that you wouldn't think Yeah, I'm with you. 100%. There's, there's a young guy that's gotten pretty popular on YouTube. And he's got a pretty decent Instagram following. And I won't say his name, you know, he's a nice guy. But he dropped out of high school, and he spends a lot of time on his feeds, talking about how you can make good money in the trades without an education. And I understand what he's saying, like, you don't need to get a Harvard education to become a pulmber.

But he's, he's almost encouraging people to drop out of high school. That's not for you just go into the trades. And I hear where he's coming from. But the polish that you mentioned, like being able to speak to an inspector or an engineer, or like, I'll give you an example, we have the sheriff called on us, we've got one neighbor on the job that we're on, that just freaks out if anybody's fenders hanging over the road there, it's just a little community. Yeah. So he every single time, I mean, literally an inch, I have him on camera getting upset at us. And so being able to even communicate with the two sheriff's deputies, when they come out, and make sure that they feel like they're at ease, that when we come out, we're not those guys that have met teeth, or, you know, just just have that look of somebody who's maybe been around the block. one too many times.

Jeremy Perkins  8:09  

Yeah, I mean, you're 100%, right. I mean, and you could be good at your craft, but, you know, just learning numbers. So I'm back, I'm back in college, myself, and I'm learning you know, Excel and, and more writing and trying to get more managerial, if you will, you know, be able to lead but you know, when you lead as, as a as a, you know, the head framer or head foreman or whatever you want to call it in your industry, it's nice to be able to help people outside the trade. So the guys that you have, from Hey, boss, I don't know what a routing number is, can you help me out with that? You know, yeah, and it's funny, or even now I got I got, you know, people from other countries that that work with us. And they can't call customer service on on the tool account that they have. And so you're sitting there talking with customer service, trying to decipher, you know, their account information and everything. So, it's just, it's nice to be able to be a little bit more polished. I agree with that.

Tim Uhler  9:10  

in it. What it does, is like, in this particular case, the neighbor, you know, he comes out, he's all upset. He's like, I'm going to call the sheriff and it's like, go for it. I don't we haven't done anything wrong. I mean, you're talking about one inch, I mean, we'll move the car that's not a big deal. But go ahead, roll. And so he's come out a couple times different sheriff's, and just being able to articulate yourself without being you know, I always call these guys berserkers where they're just ready to go insane. Right and just and the the neighbors appreciate that kind of stuff, the inspectors, the other trades, I don't really care where it's at when you can present yourself well and show that you respect other people. And not to say that that's something that you just learned going through college or high school or anything else. But I think that when you're forced to deal with more people, you get better at that.

Jeremy Perkins  9:57  

Yes. And and education isn't necessarily A, you know, in a classroom setting, either and I think that that's, that's something that Yeah, you can drop out of high school and, and learn on the job and and become one of the best customer face you can you can own a business, there's tons of people out there that do it. But to say that they stopped learning is is is untrue and education comes in many forms and whether it's, you know, online learning at night that doesn't amount to a college degree. But whether it's like you said, studying, you know, talking to people on the forums or going to trade shows or, or just or staying current. I think education is very important. It's just not one size fits all. And I agree with that completely. Yeah. And

Tim Uhler  10:38  

I that's one thing I I'm not a social media guy. I never had a Facebook account. I don't I just there's something about the look of that website that I just never liked from the beginning. Yeah. And so I wasn't interested Instagram, I got into photography, because that's my hobby. And then my editor at the trade magazine was like, I think should take this more seriously. And our account was just a joke. Yeah. But what I found is, is that what some of us think of is education. It's a four year university, it's Ivy League, it's whatever. But learning is really what we're trying to promote. And that comes like you're saying in so many different ways. And Instagram, ironically, to me, is one of those great ways to learn because there's a guy named Steve basic back east in Massachusetts, he's an architect, okay. And I can direct message him with questions. And he gets back to me and worked.

Jeremy Perkins  11:25  

 Where's he out of? Because I'm actually from Massachusetts,

Tim Uhler  11:29  

I'd have to look up doors, I'll definitely look them up. I mean, yeah, I can send it to you. But yeah, super approachable. He's a, he's an architect that worked with Building Science Corporation. So this, like papers that we read on building science and like, how to make the house weather tight, but you know, energy efficient. And it's like, wait a minute, I can go to a guy that worked with the guy that wrote all these papers that we're all kind of basing our work off of over a social media platform, or I can talk to another builder, or I can talk to manufacturers and get information much quicker than I could calling. Right? It's though it's kind of the weirdest thing. But it's making all of us better, like we're being exposed to, like you said earlier, the way you guys are building where you're at versus us. There's guys around the country or in Canada that had never heard of a lot of this stuff. But then they'll post something that I've never heard of. And it just, it's almost like musical influence. If you only ever tried to be Eddie Van Halen, you would just sound like Eddie Van Halen. But if you listen to Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen, and you listen to classical music, and all this, that you just are better. Oh, yeah, same thing in the trades. Like, I don't have that much day to day contact with plumbers, but I follow us. And so at least I get kind of an introduction into, to what all goes on, besides making sure the toilet flushes.

Jeremy Perkins  12:48  

Well, but you know, and in the building industry, I think for you, and I think it's very important to understand what the next guy is going to be doing even on a basic scale, because there's good chance that you're going to build relationships, you're going to work with these people, it's going to make, you know, tight schedules easier because you could work alongside the plumber versus the plumber coming in later and doing all his stuff, but but knowing what his steps are gonna be creates a lot of creates less steps for him in turn, making him more money. So I think I think that that's very important. I mean, that's one of the common things that I hear. Because, you know, I'm like the barber shop of the trades, you know, they come get their car repaired at my shop. And and you hear him, you know, bitching about this so and that's one of the biggest things are you know, I had to move we had to get there, the the framer to come in and move this because, you know, the electrical wasn't right or, you know, the the drywall or covered up all my electrical boxes or, or it's just, it's just amazing, the griping, because just a little bit of misinformation or a little less education. And if they just had that little bit it would have it would have gone a long way. Yeah, yeah. Yep. So what's a day in the life like for you? I mean, so first off, I'm very impressed with your, your audio or sorry, your visual. From video two still photographs. I mean, it's almost like you have a camera crew on your job sites, which is amazing. But other than that, like, what do you go through on a daily basis?

Tim Uhler  14:22  

Oh, man, that's a good question. Um, yeah, every time somebody asked me like, Hey, what's new? Well, nothing. That much changes. You know, I get up about five every morning and yeah, and I like to I've always like, the getting up early. It's just that naturally when I was a kid, I used to just be the first one up and so I'd always start the fire in the fireplace using way too much wd 40. naps for the house down? Yeah, but I just like to get up read a little bit. Take my time get to work. You know, we started about seven and we just work all the video stuff is on a GoPro which I cannot clamp to a stud and it's it's super easy to use. Frame throughout the day, come home. Spend time with the wife. We're religious family. So Tuesday nights and Saturdays and Sundays were usually tied up with that. And then it's just walking the dog and, and reading and trying not to spend too much time on social media.

Jeremy Perkins  15:12  

No, that's awesome. And do you? It's a tough question, but you actually enjoy what you do. Currently. I mean, it is the love still there has the luster worn off? And you know, that's a good question. Because there

Tim Uhler  15:23  

are days where I'm like, this is the dumbest job in the world. It's one problem after another. But most of the time, I really like it, because I like we have to take the month of March off, because here in Washington, we had to stay at home order for the COVID. And all of us have just been all messed up physically, kind of sitting around for a month, and I thought I was staying active. But one thing I really like about framing is staying active. You know, I'll be 43 in December. And I just don't want to, I can tell him slowing down a little bit. But I just want to stay active. So I'm fortunate where we can invest in tools and equipment that minimize, you know, the repetitive stress type of stuff. But I just really liked putting the tool bags on. And just using a saw and a nail gun. And there's times where I'm working alone where the guys are sick or on different jobs. And I can listen to my music, ironically, like listening to like folk music sometimes will actually just put me in a good mood and you're singing and it's like, even if the weather's bad, when at the end of the day, you can see that you did something or Yep, this last winter was just rough. It was so wet. But when I look back at the pictures, I'm just like, Yeah, but we dealt with it. We like we didn't just go home like wimps, we, we got it out. And so you get a sense of satisfaction of gone. I didn't take the easy way out.

Jeremy Perkins  16:46  

So what's amazing about what you just said, and I love it is You said you're slowing down. And if you look at it a different way, are you becoming more efficient, because I remember when I was first in the trades, and I was a complete mess tools everywhere. I felt like I was going 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction. I was always scrambling to get the job done. I was working my butt off. But yeah, I watched I watched the guy next to me probably 50 years old and he's eating a banana looking out the door. And he's billing more hours than me. And I'm like, How the hell does he do it? And and as you get older, you starting to realize you've done it enough that the job actually seems a little bit easier. You're picking things up the right way? Are you Yeah, you know, the tools more than then your body? I mean, so being, I guess slowing down, do you find yourself actually being more efficient?

Unknown Speaker  17:40  

Yeah. And that's kind of been a constant focus. You know, that's one thing about framing I've taught I have friends that have been superintendents in commercial. And they said, whenever they're looking for another guy to train as a superintendent, they look for framers, because it is like pounded into our head, you never walk anywhere without something in your hand. Right? If you have to walk back to the truck in, you know, grab your lunch, take a tool that you know, you're not going to use the rest of the day. And so that becomes second nature. Like this summer, we've had a young guy working with us for the summer while he's off school. And watching how hard he works for something super basic. It's just a My heart goes out to him. Because remember, just the struggle in your life. And so I'll show him how to lift things. That's kind of where some of the joy comes now is it's not at the end of the day saying, you know, I burned 7000 calories running all day, it was like, I didn't have to work that hard and got the same amount done because I'm more efficient now.

Jeremy Perkins  18:33  

Well, that's amazing. Like the tricks I've learned, you know, I watched I watched one guy just just slam a hat, a sledgehammer to a rotor and the rotor popped off. And I was like, that's a pretty neat trick. And you know, all the all this time you're hammering from the backside and won't come off. And you do see, learning the little tips and tricks and the little shortcuts is is is actually fun to teach. And, and as I'm getting older, I forget, you know, all the small shortcuts that I take for granted are actually huge time savers. That coming in. So it's it's hysterical.

Unknown Speaker  19:08  

And that's part of what I love about social media is so when I was on the forums learning, I'm learning from guys that are probably older than I am now. But they were willing to share. And I feel like it's my responsibility to almost like, not just pay it forward, but the same spirit of generosity that they had. So if there's something that we learn, I put it on Instagram, because I know it's going to help somebody. And if there's something we do stupid, I'm going to put it on Instagram because then people don't think that they're the only ones. I mean, we make mistakes all the time. And so I like the I like the community of sharing, and I never liked hearing stories about in certain, like commercial jobs, especially where everybody closely guarded their secrets. Yeah, I understand you know, you're trying to try to keep some job security but on the other hand, if you're watching somebody just work their tail off and you can you can walk like we did a we had a tear out uh, it was like a remodel project that we had. tear out the stairs. And we were kind of out of work back in oh eight. So it was one of our kingdom halls were Jehovah's Witnesses. And so we were remodeling and this guy, we call them Dave, the concrete guy cuz he was a commercial guy. The guy's name was Dave and he worked on the crate. So he walks over watching a struggle to rip out these stairs. And in a couple blows with a sledgehammer. He had the thing in pieces. In my coworker and I even now 10 years later, we talked about how to Dave know exactly where to hit that. So that I mean, we pounded on that thing with sledgehammers and jackhammers all afternoon. Of course, he may have just waited until he knew the right time, and just just to show knows, but I just, I appreciate people who are willing to share their knowledge. And so many people have been generous with me that it's like, no, let's pass this on. You know, keep it fun.

Jeremy Perkins  20:47  

So you, so you're a little bit older than me, but I think we kind of grew up in the same time period, there wasn't really much along the lines. So you know, growing up, it was, you know, national news, local news, you know, cartoons on Saturday, but we had whatever PBS and and you'd have Bob Vila norm Abrams, you have this old house, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And it wasn't, it wasn't a lot like you can go on you can go on the internet now or, or go through 9000 channels on the TV and, and find all these all these, you know, different DIY shows and what have you. But for us, it was like one show this old house. Yeah. And it's it's amazing that now we're kind of doing the same thing. And I like passing it on to the kids and trying to get them more involved. And I think it's great. I mean, even with my daughter now it's it's something that my parents did for me was teaching me to work with my hands a little bit.

Unknown Speaker  21:47  

Is this something that you're going to do with your kids? I don't have any kids, but it's knit something. So I've got three nieces from my sister. And then my brother's got two little boys and and a little girl. Yeah. And so even the other day, we've got a Kubota mini excavator. And so Ethan happened to wake up early. And so my brother was like, gonna make the rounds on the jobs. And he's he's so he just took him with him and put them in the Kubota. I don't know, I love the idea of teaching kids to work with their hands. My dad grew up on a farm in North Dakota. And in that work ethic, if it wasn't for just like age related issues, like arthritis and things he would be working all day every day because he just you learn the value of work in sweating, and accomplishment and organizing and cleanup and all those things that I hated it. like five or six, I find the most pleasure and now. So I really think that that's something that either with my nieces and nephews or if I had my own kids, I would definitely want them working with their hands.

Jeremy Perkins  22:43  

Well, I think it was funny, because I think that's like also the key to longevity, too. I mean, other than other than genetics, you see, we have a local guy, I think he's in his 90s. And he does Small Engine Repair in the in the area, and he won't give it up. And that's a sense of purpose in life. And essentially, until his body fails, which you know, that has everything to do with genetics. It won't prematurely fail because he wakes up every morning with a sense of purpose versus just deteriorating, if you will.

Unknown Speaker  23:16  

Yeah, we had in the congregation that my wife grew up in it was an old guy. He was an old lager named Jean. Yeah. And Jean was probably in his 80s when I was talking to him, and and he asked me what I do. And I said, Oh, I frame and work on houses. And, and he said, You know, I think that is the best thing to be outside working. He goes, I'm convinced that I've lived this long and this healthy because I've lived that whole time in the woods. You know, he lived in, I think almost 90. And same thing. We've known old guys that were roofers that were still up there working on projects in their 80s and nailing almost as fast as guys could use a gun. Yeah. And it was just, you know, that was my big fear it was somehow getting injured. So we've always been real careful and take that stuff seriously. But I look at those guys and go, how long can I swing a hammer? Well, I think quite a long time. Yeah. And I want to keep being able to do it. I just, I'm with you sitting around editing video for the month that we were off. Just have this like what is going on? It's like that month aged me 10 years?

Jeremy Perkins  24:13  

Well, unfortunately for me, I've been off for five months because my children haven't where we were like hard hit and Oh, yeah. So I go I go back on on. I go back next week. So I'm actually looking forward very much to Yeah, turning wrenches again. So yeah, I

Unknown Speaker  24:29  

mean, we when we went back we it's been a struggle here for the last couple of years to find guys to do our concrete flat work like driveways and slabs. Yeah. And I had done a little bit of it. We used to do that stuff when I was a kid, but I just mostly was labor. And so it's like, well, I think we can figure it out. And there's a couple big concrete accounts on Instagram that have been super helpful. So it was like that we went straight from kind of sitting on on our backsides for a month to doing Concrete Work, and it just felt so good to sweat and it felt good to wake up the next morning was Some aches It was like, Oh, we use the muscles that haven't been used in a while. just felt good. I feel like even emotionally or mentally with all the all the crazy stuff that's going on besides pandemics and in the normal stresses, like here in Seattle, it's been basically nonstop protesting and all that kind of stuff. And it's just everybody is on on just the razor's edge. And I feel like just getting out there and sweating and working is a way to stay somewhat balanced. Insane.

Jeremy Perkins  25:24  

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's there's something to be said about getting your hands dirty. I mean, I can't wait that these things are too pretty. I don't have any grime on my fingernails, and it's killing me.

Unknown Speaker  25:35  

He's a septic designer. And they also do maintenance. And he said that every year all the office people get super sick. But all guys out there pumping septics, he goes, none, no more gloves, they eat their lunch while they're pumping? Those guys never get sick. Yeah, I think there is something for dirty hands.

Jeremy Perkins  25:51  

Exactly. Um, so I want I wanna, I want to hear the trade problems that you have. Because, you know, for people listening, I, you know, I want to I want to hear what, you know, influencers or, you know, leaders in the in the trades are doing to kind of get away from things, you know, bad or what have you. I mean, we talked about earlier how, you know, he fly off the handle with a customer or you're just not well smoking, spoken, or you can't articulate the situation that it makes your job harder, and you may not, you know, you may be doing the right thing, but you may not get that, that recommendation later, and then in turn gives us a bad a bad look, as as a tradesman. so empowering the trades is kind of been my biggest thing and, you know, making us, you know, lifting us up putting us on a pedestal saying these guys are just as good as anybody else out there, you know, as opposed to people looking down at us calling us grease monkeys or, or what have you. What are some unspoken trends or issues you're seeing in your trades? You know, I

Unknown Speaker  26:56  

don't know, I feel like the the media and maybe social media to some extent, in talking about the the shortage of skilled labor, a lot more high school kids are looking to trade schools, and the trades in general, because often, especially the construction, doing what's doing, you could go work in a big city or work with the unions and make great money. Yeah, learn a skill, you know, make a living wage while you're learning the skill, which there's a huge advantage, obviously, to that. I just don't find personally, and it could just be the community that we're in, you know, we've got the Navy, and the Naval Shipyard. And then there's a big army base, just like 45 minutes from us, and we've got the submarine base. And like, those guys are known for being very smart, the Navy does not they pick smart guys to be on submarines. So and they're always very kind well spoken. So I feel like our community, it's almost we're not an agricultural community. But whenever we go to Eastern Washington, you find that people don't look down on people who work with their hands in our area. Not sure if they got to downtown Seattle, you could find some of that, but I just don't. Sometimes I wonder like, I know that sometimes people will, you know, they want their kids to become the doctor or the lawyer or whatever. But I really feel like people have opened up to the options beyond college. And just listening to some of the presidential candidates talk about the student loan crisis, and this and that, and I've talked to people that had asked him, Why did you pick college? And they were like, Well, it's because my guidance counselor? Yeah, it's like, but how did you end up with 100 grand in debt in like a journalism degree? Like, what were you planning? What were you thinking you could do with that? And the answer is, they really weren't. They were just kind of going along there. So

Jeremy Perkins  28:41  

they're supposed to be doing

Unknown Speaker  28:42  

Yeah, and what? And I remember my guidance counselor's trying to tell me that too. And I mean, let's be honest, most framers don't end up with an Instagram account on and you know, right for a trade magazine. So I've been pretty fortunate as far as that goes. But I think that, I know that one thing that a lot of my followers on Instagram, I get messages, a lot of more people that are not in construction at all. And what they're just fascinated by it for the same reason that we grew up watching norm. I mean, my goal, my I would have loved to have been norm when I grew up the idea of just working with wooden tools. And so I think people are super interested in that. And now they realize that it's not what you see on HGTV, there's a lot that goes into building a house and wiring a house and plumbing a house and then our equipment when it goes down. We're not diesel mechanics. But those guys got to know their thing. And so I think people are maybe a more open to the amount of knowledge you have to have to be in any one of those given trades. Like I'm not, I'm not a mechanic never been interested. There's every time I talked to a guy that is I'm amazed at how much they know.

Jeremy Perkins  29:46  

I picked up on what you said. And I thought for me, I thought that this was one of the biggest trade problems was the fact that inadvertently, the older generation pushed there and that's why I asked do you want your kids to go on to trade and I think that for for our fathers, or grandfathers, they didn't want us to go in the trades, because there was that prospect of going to college. And, and doing more with your life, as advertised, if you if you will. And for a while that was true, but then it became oversaturated like it like to be honest with you, if we pull everybody into the trades now and forget about college, the trades are going to be oversaturated. So I agree there's this balance, but for you know what, let's call it the 80s 90s and early 2000s, we pushed everybody away from the trades because I want my son to be a doctor or I want my daughter to be a lawyer or, or what have you. And, you know, I saw in the military, I saw that there was a grant that the military became a little bit more efficient. So so the numbers, the the quotas that they needed became less, but it was still hard to find people to get into the military. Because it was like, No, I don't want my son or daughter to go to battle. And, and there's that aspect of it, but I think it was the whole parents or grandparents wanted more for their children. And they thought they were doing right by them, in turn has created this huge void in the trades, which is in turn made. Being in the trades are more lucrative business. Yeah, yeah. So I think, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker  31:30  

Well, my dad was, you know, I, like I said he grew up on a farm in North Dakota, he put himself through college. Yep. And then that was like, What 1970, maybe late 1969. He did his year, 18 months in Vietnam. Yeah. And he could join as an officer because he was a college graduate in accounting. But he never pushed any of us three. So of the three of us, my brother, myself, and my sister, my sister took enough schooling to do like, medical coding. And she makes good living, she can work from home, which has been great during the pandemic. Yeah, my brother, you know, we both got their A's with accounting, but really, that was, you know, it's like what really did I need an intro to philosophy to become an accountant, but you know, you take the class because you need a humanities credit. Yeah. And and some of it's interesting, but I'm, I'm just glad that my parents, I don't really care what anybody does, personally, yeah, just do what you enjoy doing and work hard at it. And what I find is, is that, oftentimes, you don't really like necessarily what you want and what you thought you would. But once you get good enough at it, you enjoy it. So like, I love reading lawyer books, and watching shows like that. I could have never handled the workload to become a lawyer, but I sure love watching it. And same thing with a doctor. But then you see a lot of those guys, on the weekends, they're out working with their hands, and they kind of are kind of wishing that they weren't in an office and high pressure and things. So I know, there's just as far as the trades go, now, how do you get kids in high school, to see that as more than just sweating in the sun or working in the mud in the winter. And I don't know how you do that. I like the idea of more women in the trades, because they have their unique perspective. But a lot of the guys in the trades, I don't think I'd want my daughter or my sister working around. So there's still a lot. But there's a lot of big issues there that still need to be tackled. But I love seeing some of these apprenticeships. And young women going into the trades. And I follow him on Instagram. And it's like they've got so much Moxie, they go for it. And it's like, that's good. Because when I look at it, it some of the trades in Europe, there, there do seem to be more women or like Australia, New Zealand.

Jeremy Perkins  33:40  

And there's a ton.

Unknown Speaker  33:42  

Yeah, and but I also noticed that like, it seems like they have more respect for those things that everybody has kind of a uniform for. They're like, watch these British detective shows. And you see even guys working in like longshoreman and women, and they have kind of a uniform and they look more professional, the police have a different look to them in Europe. And, you know, there's, I don't know, I would love to see more of that happen here. Where I think if we treated ourselves with a little bit more respect, we use better language, we had good behavior on the job sites, then maybe more women would feel comfortable going into the trades because they know they're going to be treated properly. And if that's the case, then people aren't afraid to come onto the site interact with the trades, like it would just once the respect level went up, I think more of us would would be willing to do it and not feel like we were stepping down in life, so to speak

Jeremy Perkins  34:29  

well on that and that's and that's what it is. I mean it to be to be a framer, you know, my, my, my short suit is mathematics and you know, I still count on my fingers to count all the lines on a on a ruler and no, but, you know, that is there's a lot of skill to watch you do from angles to everything and and people need to realize that that we're you know, just as skilled as something else and but knowing that You need to carry yourself with that degree of respect. So yeah, you're right, you need to, you need to respect yourself in what you do. And, you know, I know that the, in the in the automotive industry, we tried to change our name and I don't necessarily like it, but I kind of have to go along with it just because it's to bring the the trade up, we went from mechanics to automotive technicians, and I understand why we did it. I personally like being called a mechanic, it's just easier, you're not going to drop your car off at the automotive technicians, you're going to drop it off at the mechanic, however, I see what they were going, you know, we deal with computers, electronics, you know, circuit boards, to, you know, very sensitive stuff. And so the days of just hitting it with a hammer and it working are long gone. And I think we're all as a trade trying to get over that stigma. And and you're right, you know, we're trying to weed out the bad eggs and but with everything everybody has, yes, yeah. You know, so But you're right. I love seeing females in the trade. It's awesome. They do bring a different dynamic. They're very good with their hands. I mean, animal trades, I we did a podcast with it. And, and you know, her I'm, like, enthralled with with watching her on Instagram, oh, my goodness, all the all the projects she does. But not only just the projects, how she handles her day is actually the most impressive part. I can't organize my day in the way that she does. Right? So, but that's, that's been pretty, that's been pretty interesting. But, you know, kind of moving along, I wanted to see, what are you? What are you doing a project or build or something you've been excited about something you've done in the past, that was super cool. I kind of want to kind of want to see what you've done that that is like above and beyond or something that you want to get into later.

Unknown Speaker  36:49  

You know, when I was when I was really like, on the forums every night learning things from these guys, every day was like kind of a new experience. Yeah, I'm going to try this. And we had an opportunity to build a circular set of stairs. And we did and it was super cool. There's a lot of work. And or we're going to try this kind of roof or somebody you know, pre cuts all the rafters and hips and they gets up there and assembles it and there's all these things that just didn't even know were possible. Now I just enjoy, when things go smooth, like it's everything's become more complicated. Where we're building now it takes almost two weeks to get an inspection as opposed to next day, which makes it much more difficult to schedule things like concrete, or especially when the weather turns and you're just like, we don't know what the weather's gonna be like in two weeks, but so it's things like that, that just have made it a little bit more tedious. So I just enjoy, if I go out and I just clean up or sweep at the end of the day, I really find a lot of pleasure in that and just things going smooth, I don't even care what I'm doing. I just like when it's done and it's went well and we're just um, we keep our as a company we try to all live fairly simply and not have tons of debt. And you know, just because we all want to go camping, we don't all run out by campers, no, my dream but but we try to keep it pretty, pretty simple. So that we don't have to work too much. Like we still work for weeks, but we don't get our non work hours can be non work we can we can take a drive around the state and go take pictures or we can spend time with the nieces and nephews or we can sit in the backyard and read a book or, and just not be consumed with work. So we're as a company and the employees are all kind of the same way. It's just keep it it's a means to an end. But we all really enjoy what we're doing. It's fun to operate an excavator or a forklift and it's fun to lift a wall and and so we find joy and work within it's not the only thing in life so

Jeremy Perkins  38:48  

well I mean, that's that's a cool way of looking at it too. I mean, I've actually talked with a ton of people and they you know it's been it's been this car they've been working on or whatever and I think for you, you know summing it up it's it's being able to essentially enjoy the downtime or the simple things versus versus end your day is consumed by cool builds and projects and the more enticing thing is actually being able to enjoy life out of work because you're right i do know a ton of guys that there Go go go from six in the morning to nine o'clock at night have broken homes and what have you because they're chasing the dollar and they're making a pretty penny but you know, at the end of the day what's what's lifelike you know, yeah, and I think that that you're right, I mean, that's a huge builder project in its own its own right.

Unknown Speaker  39:39  

Well, yeah, cuz my parents just celebrated their, let's see, was it their 50th it was, and we celebrated our 20th Yeah, and my sister and brother in law, it was their 20th and August and my brother and his wife, it was their 18th and June. So I was fortunate dad, never. I mean he worked evenings as the builder he would be on site during the day. And, and make phone calls and things at night. But it was never like, that's all he did. It was a stay at home mom. And so all of us as a family are very close. And I it my brother and his little girl, Alice is the cutest I have never and I know everybody says that in their head. They're all it's all true. But I was even thinking like tonight, like I have not gotten to see Alison a week, I need to go over and see Alice, she's only two. And her little squeaky voice. And it's like, those are the moments that Yeah, work and you could put more money in the bank. But I don't know, I'd rather just spend time with the family and, and we live in such a beautiful state and Washington, I tell you what, that's the project I would love if if somebody would just start a GoFundMe page so that I could have enough money just to travel the country and take pictures, that would be my my thing. But getting out and seeing we're here in between the Olympic Mountains in the Cascades. If we go over the Cascade Mountains in eastern Washington, it's very agricultural, which has its own beauty. And it's like in within about three or four hours, we can see all of it. And so it's just, I don't know that that I guess that would be the cool project is just spending time with the family and hanging out and seeing the wonders of creation.

Jeremy Perkins  41:07  

That's cool. That's cool. And and, you know, ton of respect to that. I mean, I think that the regular nine to five sometimes can offer that. And I think that the the trades are becoming a little bit more innovative. So you know, for some of the trades that are seasonal, I think it's good to make your 20 3040 $50,000 in a couple of months and then be able to snowmobile for the winter or whatever. Yeah, I think I think that you can make it work in in whatever you want to. So, you know, for somebody building their off time, I think that's great to try to figure out what your on time is going to be interesting enough. I did watch one episode about your tool belt. And I like to get into you know, if I'm a new frame are coming into the industry, and mom and dad are going to get me a tool belt and stock it up or I am or whatever, run me through some of the basic, basic things that we want, whether it's a speed square, or whether it's, you know, nail puller what what's what, what are we going through on on your tool belt? You know, the joke is that anybody going into the trades carries way too much. Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker  42:13  

that guy will have everything you need to borrow it all there, the guy that trains me, I never could understand why he didn't really carry anything. Yeah, it was like, but now as I've gotten older, it's like I don't need that stuff. And if I need to, I'll just keep it in the buckets relatively close. So I would say hammer speed square pencil tape measure nail puller, we pull a lot of nails. And I make the joke that we really pull more nails using our hammer than we actually drive nails. nail guns. And then I would say the construction calculator.

Jeremy Perkins  42:45  

That was interesting. And I you know, I haven't been in the building industry much. And for me, that was an interesting piece, the fact that you pulled out a calculator. I don't know how many framers out there have calculators on there. So that was kind of an interesting and interesting piece. I mean, why why did why do you carry it?

Unknown Speaker  43:06  

So the guy that I've learned from he didn't we have this little solar powered scientific calculator if we needed to run any, like square foundation as an example, you know, run a pipe Adrian theorem and or, you know, there's ways around that. I just found that the construction calculator and working feet and inches. I don't want to like mentally I don't want to divide things in half. Because if you get it wrong, it's going to go sideways, and take so much time to fix. Yeah, just use the calculator work in feet and inches for us or metric if you're the rest of the world. Right? Is that true? But it to me it's a tool. So I'm not using a handsaw. I'm using the power saw. And a calculator to me is the same. It's It's my brain. I understand the guys that still like to run everything longhand, so that they remember how to do it. The problem is, is that time is money. And if I can get that in four keystrokes, but it takes you three minutes to do it longhand, I kind of feel like that's a waste of time, I could do that stuff at home this time. Time is money on the site. You can't just charge a customer more so that you have the pleasure of doing division, you know, belong in and then multiplying times 16 to get around a number. Well, the calculator

Jeremy Perkins  44:18  

going No, I was I was just saying when you were setting up your stairs, it was pretty interesting that the calculator actually set your points for you for your rise in your run. And yeah, and

Unknown Speaker  44:27  

that's exactly where I was going. Is that because it keeps track of the accumulated error in the rounding? is it's more accurate. And some guys say oh, that's, you know, don't worry about that big deal. And I agree with them, but depending on what you're doing, if you have 18 risers and treads and you're off to 16 that's an inch and an egg, right? I didn't need to be off that much. And yes, but you got to account for pencil thickness and all that stuff as you if you step off like the old school and and usually it doesn't matter and it just It's not a big deal. But sometimes it does. And so the process I showed in that video is just to me, it's very efficient, you're less likely to make mistakes. But you do have to pay the cost of the calculator. So you know, once a year, they get wet and die or the forklift, and we have amazon prime and tear the next day. So yeah, no, it's just it's a power tool, I guess is what oh,

Jeremy Perkins  45:21  

and that's good. And I think I think for guys to, especially in this trade, to be able to understand mathematics and and and how to run a calculator. I mean, hell, you can even use your phone. Now, you don't even necessarily have a calculator.

Unknown Speaker  45:37  

No, in fact, there's an app called build calc for iPhone, or iOS and Android, that it is fantastic. But the problem with using my smartphone is I don't see it as well on the sun. And yeah, I just prefer that the calculator from the construction master calculated industries, because it's very tactile, I don't have a smaller screen, I can see it. And it's not so expensive, you know, it's like 50 or 60 bucks, that if I break one a year, it's totally worth it. Whereas if I did the same thing by pulling my phone out every time I needed to divide or figure out a radius or something, I'm just increasing the likelihood that's going to get damaged, and it's just not as rugged. Also, it probably is, but it's just more expensive. And you don't want to just don't want to break it.

Jeremy Perkins  46:21  

Yeah, yeah. So for me when I was in, and I'm moving in a different direction right now, for, for me when I started Instagram and started this podcast and doing what I'm doing currently. The reason why I did it was as I was, I was kind of I kind of hit a wall, I was in the doldrums, if you will about about my trade. I've been in whatever 15 plus years now, and talking with people in other trades, I realized that that's kind of a mark, like, you've learned, you've learned a lot. And now you you've kind of plateaued and you're like, what's next, and for me, the podcast, the Instagram, the the passing on the learning was the thing that changed my career, what has changed your career, saying?

Unknown Speaker  47:09  

Yep, as you're saying that it's like preaching to the choir. I am the guy that taught me he had a system that worked. It worked well. And it worked every time. Yeah, that kind of drives me nuts. Because I'd want to try all this new stuff. You know, I'm learning all this. You know, I didn't know that you could figure out split pitch roofs and all this stuff. And guys made it so easy for me to learn this guy. Let's try it, Dave. And he was at that 15 year, 20 year point, right now, I think exactly the same age that he was. And I feel the same way where I just kind of want to coast. But the social media side has kept it interesting, where it's like, oh, somebody had a question on that. And we're doing it tomorrow, I'll just put the camera up there. Or, you know, this is how I use my calculator for calculating stairs, I'll just clamp the GoPro to the end, and show it and it keeps it interesting. And it also what we find is that when we do have those new guys, now we've got a video record where it's like, watch this on your off hours, and it will put things into context. And you'll you'll kind of get up to speed quicker. But I'm totally with you where it was like, I don't know, I'm getting a little stagnant. Right. And this just keeps it I think it just kind of delays the inevitable. We'll see what the next thing is that kind of puts the spring back in the step. But for sure, it's been the specifically Instagram, I'm doing YouTube just because it's longer form. And YouTube is so quick, like, you know, I post a video today and by Friday, no one will remember it. It's hard to find and and so it's very, very short attention span on it. Yeah,

Jeremy Perkins  48:33  

I and and I know it's funny talking to a lot of people that have mixed beliefs on Tick Tock and I'm not going to go into the political side or the beliefs in it. But if you do, it was kind of a new eye opener for me because you're able to post it's kind of a little bit more creative because you got essentially 60 seconds. So you know, what can you get out there in it's your elevator pitch if you will, like what can you get out there really quick if you're in front of somebody and you're like I need to sell my product you know? And so how can you educate somebody very quickly and it's become Wow, it's become this this amazing platform granted, it's funny and there's a lot of other stuff on it and that's kind of the majority of it but it is funny to try to keep up with a lot of the a lot of the different platforms because for me you know i Facebook was actually it was my space was the first oh yeah you know way back but then it was but then it was Facebook and Facebook was kind of the the big meat and potatoes but now it's become stagnant. I mean my parents are on every and I'm not saying that in a bad way. love you mom and dad. I'm just saying that it's it's become more of a social circle if you will. And and now with Instagram, it's more informative, and whatever you have LinkedIn for if you want to put your resume out there and what have you, you have Tick Tock if you want to have a laugh, I mean, the possibilities are endless. Trying to keep up with all that it's been

Unknown Speaker  50:01  

that Yeah, I didn't want to do the TIC Tock thing. But there's a guy on, it's our buildings on Instagram. And the aisle is the nicest guy in person. I've gotten a chance to meet him twice. And so at the International builder show in January down in Las Vegas, I was like, Kyle, is it worth it? And he goes, do it. Because it's fresh, it's new. It's a little bit different. The algorithm works better. So your contents going to be seen by more people. Well, he's he's at about a million followers now. And last winter, he was just getting started like October, November. Yeah. And he's a charismatic guy. And he's got a good thing going on. Everybody loves Kyle. He's just a cool, cool guy. Yeah, but so anyway, I thought, okay, I'll try it. It's, and I don't know what I'm up to now. 13 14,000 followers, and I don't really interact too much with it. Because I didn't realize that they limit the comments. So if somebody asks me a question, I can't answer it, without it bleeding into two or three comments. Yeah. So it's a whole different way of thinking. But we'll see what happens with it. I'm not, I don't really want to run multiple platforms, because it's to keep track of you know, on the other hand, once you're into it this far, do you really decide to limit yourself to one you know, because the thing is now is companies are finally starting to notice. I'm going to work with Home Depot on on a couple little projects on Simpson strong tie, who makes a lot of the hardware that we use. They're they're big proponents of education. And so that's the companies that I've been looking forward to work with is like, you guys need to sponsor content, not because it's here by our saw, but it's no, here's how to lay out that rafter, but it's sponsored by the company that manufactures the saw, but that's not the focus. And that way people continue learning and I just don't know how that's going to work on Tick Tock so well, it's a it's,

Jeremy Perkins  51:45  

it's funny for me, because, you know, like I said, I'm not trying to put that plug out there for the for the sponsorship, but, you know, I'm speaking in real time I was a, I'm a pneumatic guy, we're 100%, pneumatic, and then all of a sudden, things started to switch to this, you know, the wall was for me for my shop. And I know, it's different from everywhere. The wall seemed to be kind of a leader, they brought out this 12 Volt Lithium Ion impact driver, and I was like, This is crap. You know, I got my I got my pneumatic stuff, and it's great. But then as the technology got a little better, I was like, all the guys in the shop, you know. And I started to find that things were a little bit better and better and better. And now you're not dragging this greasy hose through somebody's car. You could do the you can get everything in the dashboard out and then all of a sudden Milwaukee jumped in. And yeah, walkie has just kind of run away. So I'm, I'm actually in a transitional phase I have. I've invested in the DeWalt system clearly because that was you know, came out early. But now you know, we have side ratchets aircraft. Well, they're not air ratchets. But the equivalent to an air ratchet in Milwaukee and to Walt's not offering it. So now I have to switch systems and I just recently bought a half inch Milwaukee impact wrench because now everybody it's you go out in the parking lot work on the car. Yeah, set up like 10,000 hoses to bring it on.

Unknown Speaker  53:11  

They're small and lightweight. I mean, we're completely cordless as a framing crew except for the pneumatic nail guns. Right? We have one been saw that we run off power. And if it wasn't for COVID skilsaw would have released it. They had it at World of concrete last February. So it's running. And I was like, is this stuff gonna be good enough to run framing tools all day long. It is. And I am telling you, you're safer without hoses and cords running all over the place. I mean, we have two hoses that we have to keep track of versus like two hoses and five cords. And it is unbelievable. How that has changed things for us. It's convenient, it's cleaner, it's safer. It's a it is so much. I mean just using the SATA cut things and not having to tie off your cord and then the power trips every winter because I don't care how good you are. Your cord is going to have a neck somewhere. Yeah, and I can see that for mechanics, the stuff that I'm especially Milwaukee seems to have come out with. Yeah, it's this little stuff that you can get right in there. And it's got a ton of torque and it's just amazing.

Jeremy Perkins  54:16  

Well, it's nicer because it also does you know as as cars get in, and I'm speaking from, from the cleaner side of things for for somebody that had, you know, essentially maintain your hose, make sure there's no grease on it, because you're bringing it you're literally bringing the hose in the car to work on the car. You got to be careful of all those things not not necessarily just your body, but but all the tools that you're bringing into the car, you got to saddle interior, all of a sudden you got a grease print somewhere, you know what I mean? And I wouldn't be happy if it was my car. So just being able to, to mine what's in your hand and only what's in your hand is a lot better than trying to figure out what trail of and then you're sitting there going Did I make that mark? Who was that mark? there? You know, it's almost like you're you're getting the information out there and selling the product at the same time. But as contractors and tradesmen, we, we kind of weed out the good and the bad just by, you know, essentially sponsoring these companies. But it's it's kind of funny.

Unknown Speaker  55:18  

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little bit sad because you know, everybody's an influencer on Instagram, whether they want to be called that or not. And that is all basically free advertising for these companies. Correct? Yeah. And it would be nice if they would not necessarily pay us to use the product. But if there's something that is edgy to me, if it's educational, or informative, that should be the focus. But for me, like I've done some bad tool reviews in the past. And what we decided writing for the magazine was nobody really wants to read a bad tool review, the best thing you can do for a bad tool is just not give it any press at all. Correct. And so, yes, you get those guys that come across like a salesperson. But most of the time, people can tell it's authentic, it's like, I don't really care what brand impact wrench you're using. They're all getting so good. That here's what I'm using it for now, go buy yours on your platform. This isn't sponsored by DeWalt, or Milwaukee or correct. It's just like, here's the principle. Now, whatever battery platform you're on, and I feel like people on Instagram especially seem to, to be able to kind of weed that out, they don't really care the product you're using. They're more interested in how you're using it, and then they'll make their own decision. And so I know I don't, I don't really get any flack for a particular tool, because we've got them all in the van. So just whatever's convenient,

Jeremy Perkins  56:36  

I love to actually watching you do a tool review whether it was supposed to be a tool review, or just educating people on a new tool that has come out because that's there's a difference there too. But it was interesting to see that you did it and showed how to use the tool wasn't a still shot of like, Hey, I got this awesome new tool, go go out and buy it. You actually allow the person the viewer to make the decision for themselves on whether or not they wanted to buy this product, basically, by what you're doing with it, you know? Yeah, and as a contractor, for the most part, people are educated enough that they'll be able to say, Hey, you know what, that's useful. I don't have to bend over and put all these screws in the floor. I got this long extension. This is gonna be great. You know what I mean? So yeah, I think that that's a that's a crazy thing. So social media, in general has become this whole whole other animal of education, tool, sharing, just tips and tricks, and even even fun. I mean, I yeah.

Unknown Speaker  57:40  

And it's created some relationships, not like you old days, where you were kind of concerned, you didn't really know who was on the other end, because there wasn't no bit there wasn't any video. But now, like when we show show up at these trade shows, you get to meet these people. And there's none of the awkwardness of meeting for the very first time you watch their stories, you know something about their life, and, and now you can just get down to either enjoying the interaction or learning. And it's it really, you know, I understand that, yes, it's social media. And that's kind of the point is to be social. But that can be a real positive, especially when, when it's not just an echo chamber, and it's people that are just like you.

Jeremy Perkins  58:17  

Well, it's funny, because now that I've jumped in and now that I've, I've expanded to try to reach people who who do this on a daily basis, I've come into this not circle, but an upper level of people who genuinely care, they're, they're willing to spread the word. And it was funny that you're talking about Kyla r&r builders, I've actually been talking to him about doing a podcast with us. And we just haven't hit on the timing because, you know, it's very hard for busy people to get down to it. But he's been very nice and, and everybody out there from an influencer, quote, unquote, perspective has been, Hey, you know what, I'd love to come on the podcast, I'd love to reach your listeners, I'd love to spread the word. And it's been it's been, you know, absolutely eye opening for me at at the, at the sheer willingness to bring people in and and it's been unbelievable, including you yourself. I mean, this has been, this has been awesome. So that network that I've learned is outside of the trade shows, or outside of my small little market has been amazing.

Unknown Speaker  59:22  

Yeah, you know, and what it's a nice counterbalance to is all the crazy stuff that's going on around us is that I don't know what Kyle is on. I don't know what he is. If he's a religious, not religious, if he's Republican, Democrat. I don't know anything other than he works hard. He's got a nice family takes care of him. He's funny, and it's like, you can have relationships with people even if you have wildly different opinions. Yeah. And and of course, that seems to be a little bit more rare anymore, especially when you watch the news and see how crazy everything is, but it's nice to just have a community that you know, he's over there in the middle And then you communicate with guys in Canada or Europe or Australia. And all of a sudden all of the borders are gone. And it's people. We're all just human. We all want to have families and have a somewhat successful life. Most of us aren't trying to become billionaires. We're just trying to provide for the family and, you know, enjoy life. And that's the common ground. And I'm just so shocked that you find that on Instagram, I never anticipated anything like that, or animal trades. I mean, I wish that she was still living here in North to Seattle.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:32  

Welcome Rockies.

Jeremy Perkins  1:00:34  

Ironically, that you say that because as tradesmen, we operate without borders. I mean, there are people that have the confines, whatever, but you talk to you know, I was talking with Ryan of powerline podcast about being alignment, and he's like, you know, we're home to be home. But when we're out, we're out. We're in, we're in Connecticut we're in and they're from Canada. So they're, they're, you know, they're, they're down in the Bahamas, they're there, wherever there's power outages, you know what I mean? I got, I got buddies that I grew up with that work for subway or McDonald's and all of a sudden, there'll be dry walling for McDonald's, you know, in Michigan, and they come in Tuesday week. So I think that us as trades people have are able to essentially knock down the walls or borders or what have you. I mean, I work beside a guy from Brazil. And, you know, I'm constantly learning his culture as well as he's constantly learning our so it's funny that it's almost humbling to be able to deal with different ethnicities and and and, you know, genders or, or what have you and, and be able to just work beside and achieve a common goal. Yeah, no, I think that's a boring would it be if everybody was just like you and me? That'd be awful.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:48  

I think we've seen that in the movies where it's like, no, that's very dystopian, I don't really care for that. The more dollar is better, you know more vibrance is better,

Jeremy Perkins  1:01:55  

absolutely. makes you a better person. Yeah. Um, so what do you do outside of work?

Unknown Speaker  1:02:01  

Like I mentioned, we're religious family. So one of the things my wife and I do is, we get to serve on kind of a maintenance crew. Since all of our kingdom halls and houses of worship, it's all financed through donated funds, we obviously don't want to waste it by, you know, letting things fail. And so we're big into maintenance. So we do that. And then just the hobby side of it. We would love to do more traveling. But we had all these plans. This year, it was our 20th anniversary, we're going to meet some people from Instagram and drive through California and visit Yosemite and Joshua Tree and so it's just stuff like that get out go up to Mount Rainier and take pictures. Just Yeah, I mean, just enjoy life. I mean, I'm already almost 43 it's like everybody said it is so up and smell the roses.

Jeremy Perkins  1:02:47  

So as we wrap up the show, I always ask I myself am a Chevy guy always been a Chevy guy My parents are General Motors all their you know all their life. What is your daily driver, your company vehicle, you know, just kind of get a feel for what what you use as a work vehicle or if you don't have a work vehicle, what your daily drivers.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:08  

So for work, we've got a Mercedes Sprinter that we bought back and man, I think it was 2015. Now, yeah, you know, the 14 foot high with the dooleys. And, man, I really do love working out of a van and that thing. The it's an e6 diesel, which so we can tow four panels and things. But I love people who get right on my tail getting on the highway, and I go through the weigh station just to see. And with all the tools, I'm about 8100 pounds, yeah, and this thing pushes down the highway so fast that people will try to pass me on an on ramp or something. And they can't happen, that motor just does its thing. It's been a great vehicle for us. And then as far as personally, we drive a Subaru Forester and we just love the all wheel drive because we can get up into the mountains and my family has always been Toyota. So we broke from tradition by going with Subaru.

Jeremy Perkins  1:03:58  

What was funny with the Mercedes, I mean, that went that was a that was an interesting thing, because it's it's for people out there that don't know and this is kind of bringing my mechanic side into it. So you have Mercedes Sprinter, but you also have Freightliner you have, you know the dodges did their sprinter. So, all of that was kind of there was three different platforms, but that broke the mold from your E 250. Your e three, D your, you know, g 3500 your Dodge Ram vans. I mean, those were, you know, your, your typical barn door in the back bar on the side, you know, and this gave you more space. I mean, now people are using them for campers and have you but if you're in this the space is unbelievable.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:45  

Yeah, it is when we were in Europe back in. Was that 2009? I remember seeing when we were in Switzerland, I think was he a plumber, but it was a little Ford Transit and it was the little right. Yeah, it was like my father and I would love and I were looking at it. Like what That is genius. You know, he's, he's probably a guy that goes out on service calls and doesn't need to have a huge rig. And then a buddy of mine, he's a carpet cleaner. And he needed to get rid of his Ford at like eight miles to the gallon. And I happened to read an article on Freightliner back in 2002 or something, then I was like, john, you should look into it. Well, he's still driving that thing. And the fuel savings were enough to pay for his car payment. Yeah, so that was starting. It really was and it was the diesel motor. And so we started to see more around we had a friend who had the Dodge brand sprinter when they were still together. Yeah. And we're like, okay, when we our Chevy box, man, it when it was time to finally replace it, because we do carry a lot of tools we needed. We were always over capacity and wearing out the brakes and blew the transmission at like 27,000 miles. And this has just been, you know, I just couldn't get in for its its be service. And then of course, the recalls on the airbags.

Jeremy Perkins  1:05:54  

Yeah. But that's,

Unknown Speaker  1:05:55  

I think, the second or third time in five years, because we know it's got 38,000 miles. So in five years, you can tell we're not traveling super far, but not having downtime, like I had to, they had a park that was backordered. And so I had the they gave me a little Mercedes metris. And I had to pull tools out because we're gonna pour concrete on Monday, and this was on a Friday. And it was like, I don't even know where to begin pulling all the tools out of here, because we use them all. Yeah, but there's so much room in those things a 14 foot with a it's just, it has been a great and so whether you go with the bike, our electrician drives the Dodge, I forget the name of that one.

Jeremy Perkins  1:06:30  

sprinter Yeah. No, yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:35  

It's the new one. Oh, what are those called? But anyway, some guys are driving the

Jeremy Perkins  1:06:40  

Ford Transit Pro, pro Mac Pro.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:42  

Pro master. Yeah. Yep. He drives that. And so that style definitely has its place in the trades.

Jeremy Perkins  1:06:50  

Yes. And it's funny, because, you know, with the, with the big box trucks, and I know a lot of guys still have them. So I'm not. I'm not shitting on those guys at all. But they're the least they're the least aerodynamic there. Yeah, you know, we're getting up there with the with the six O's and the five fours and they're just guys are complaining that they're going through so much gas with the VA it's and then all of a sudden, you got four that comes out. So we did it we did we got a company that has does alarm system. So they're like, their mini electricians if their alarm guys out there. They're listening. I didn't mean that in a negative light. It just seems like they carry less equipment than then electricians. And they're running the transit. Like you said the smaller transit connects with the, you know, with the four cylinder front wheel drive. So now you go from rear wheel drive, which sucked in the snow with the VA to now you got a front wheel drive, which is a little bit better. four cylinder and you're carrying the same amount of equipment. Yeah. And And so yeah, they definitely. And I think that's definitely a European model to be to or European influence, if you will, because you go over to Europe, and like you said, you know, it's it's a way it's different. They're less clunky and

Unknown Speaker  1:08:02  

well, and he's like in the trades, especially residential construction, everybody has to have that. That giant truck that's lifted. It's the diesel that's like 30 feet long, we did a built the house for a guy who had the length in the garage for his truck. And of course, he never parked inside. And it was like, I mean, literally his truck, I think was 24 feet long. Wow. But this printer, I fact, I just looked it up. The sprinter was like 48,000. For the 14 foot, it's the heavier duty with the dooleys. And we put some put some shelving in it. So it's a $50,000 van that is safe, because there's no windows for people to even see what's inside. And then I look at these guys, they've got a 70 or $80,000 truck, and they pull a trailer with all their tools. And I think some of it is an ego thing. Some of it can be like I know down where we vacation in Central Oregon, you can't drive around in the snow without those big trucks right here. You definitely don't need them for the weather. And they're not functional, you need a ladder to get into them. And so we just always found that the van just worked better.

Jeremy Perkins  1:09:04  

Yeah, yeah. Well, I it's good to hear what what you're going through. I mean, it's informational for somebody, you know, I a lot of people out there still driving around, you know, trailering things. I mean, that's another thing is, yeah, you can you can potentially get away from a trailer and not having to worry about storing it or or what have you. But everybody has a reason. So you know, thanks for diving into that at this point. As we wrap up the show, I just want to a thank you for being on here and you know, going through a day in the life of a framer, but I wanted to take some time for you to be able to touch on anything that we haven't touched on, give a shout out to anything talk about, you know, anything that's yours or, or you're affiliated with, and now's your chance to take the stage.

Unknown Speaker  1:09:50  

I find that every time I do a podcast or I do like a webinar, they're like give us your background and it's basically two sentences and it's like, I don't know. Like for me, Instagram is not about blowing them. My own horn tooting my own horn or something like that. It's just simply to pass information on. Yep. So I write for the Journal of light construction, which is a great trade magazine. Fine homebuilding. Otherwise, I don't really have anything to say or plug or it's, I just appreciate you taking the time and inviting me on so it's always kind of fun to do this.

Jeremy Perkins  1:10:18  

Once again, Tim, thanks. Thanks for being on the show. I was a pleasure to have you and, and I hope our listeners feel the same way. Thank you so much for having me. All right, but