Donald Ducharme

Eric Girouard  0:00  

This is Bucket Talk, a weekly podcast where people who work in the trades and construction that aren't just trying to survive, but have the ambition and desire to thrive. The opportunity to trade and construction is absolutely ridiculous right now. So if you're hungry, it's time to eat. We discussed what it takes to rise from the bottom to the top with people who are well on their way and roll up their sleeves every single day.

Jeremy Perkins  0:29  

This is Jeremy and Eric here with Bucket Talk powered by BRUNT. This week, we have Don Ducharme. Don works for Essex Tech. But before we get into it, Eric, what's been going on.

Eric Girouard  0:41  

So it's an interesting day today here at the BRUNT shop. So we got paved into our office, which sounds weird, but they basically literally paved the parking lot and the driveway where we work here. And since it literally wraps around the entire building, we actually have we got paved in to walk out on with your shoes, but couldn't bring in cars caused us to actually have to cancel an event. We had our friends over at 128 coming in with 20 of their top performers. And so we actually had to push that out a week because we, long story short, but we couldn't pull out the ATVs onto the tar. And so we ended up pushing that out. And then the good news is five of us ended up building our podcast booth, which is going to change the game a little bit Jeremy myself, Nate, Steven, and our buddy Tony hung around and we got our new kind of soundproof podcast booth that's going to hopefully make things better for all you guys bill, which, to be honest, it was a total bleep show. 

Jeremy Perkins  1:41  

It's definitely a bear to put together 

Eric Girouard  1:43  

Super heavy things weren't aligning, but you know what, we powered through it, we got it done and future podcasts gonna be held there. And I'm glad it's behind us. What about you, Jeremy?

Jeremy Perkins  1:53  

So the search is over, I now hired a assistant barn manager, my wife is super happy. We went the route of you know, education and getting a new soul into the barn versus a tenured, you know, equestrian. And then my wife super happy to work with our new bar manager. She's 19 It's gonna be cool, because it's, you know, definitely empowering her and she's got a lot to learn, but she's eager to work. So we're pumped, and it'll definitely take a little bit of the workload off of us, which is, you know, never ending up at the Perkins farm. But uh yeah, big win for us up here in Maine.

Eric Girouard  2:31  

Nice. Nice. Let's dig in with Don.

Jeremy Perkins  2:34  

Let's do it. 

Alright, we're here with Don Ducharme career technical and agricultural director of Essex North Shore Agricultural and Technical School. Don, welcome.

Don Ducharme  2:49  

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Perkins  2:50  

Awesome. Awesome. So super pumped to have you on the show. You know, as being an educator and everything. I think this is a very important aspect of Bucket Talk. Before we dive into the whole education side of thing, how'd you get your start? Pick us way back.

Don Ducharme  3:03  

Who way back is almost 40 years ago, now. I was lucky enough to have a father that was in the business. And at about 10 years old, he started taking me on selected jobs that you know, a little kid could do and things like that. Right after seventh grade, I started working full time summers and worked my way every summer. Every Monday Holiday. My father happened to be a teacher at a vocational school as well. So we had the same schedule with school, basically, every day off for him from school was a day off for me. And we went out and did projects in the Ducharme family masonry business.

Eric Girouard  3:37  

Awesome. Awesome. It was that mass based or?

Don Ducharme  3:41  

Yes, it was based out of Drake, Massachusetts, right up the street from here. And I actually still live in the family home. My dad's passed since I moved back into the house and still work out of the same garage and do projects on the weekend still to this day. Wow. Wow,

Jeremy Perkins  3:57  

crazy stuff. Take it back to how you got your start. So you worked with your father, you learn the trade? Did you learn everything on the job? Did you go to school for it? Or did you just jump in through it?

Don Ducharme  4:08  

He was a teacher as well vocational school. So as much as I went to a traditional comprehensive high school, I still got that vocational training on the job site. You know, going through high school and you know, family business is tough work and for your father. And we got yelled at a lot, you know, not afraid to say that. And it really made me want to go towards college. I actually went through college and got a degree in Medical Technology, worked in that field for just a couple of years. But that entire time, entry level position didn't really pay continued to do the masonry all the time, whether it was at night or the weekends to help pay the bills. At one point I was in a sales job and that kind of went downhill with the.com You know, blow up in a one and I jumped into the Mason reunion. And coincidentally, my first job was at the Neshoba tech school Another vocational school. Yeah. So I was there for a while. And then that Job was finishing up. And at the time, the position came up at greater Lowell tech. And I was just like, Man, I just changed careers again, I don't want to be doing this. And I went to sleep, and I woke up the next day ago. What do you think? Like your father did this forever. You go, you'd be a teacher. You work the summers, you work the weekends, life was good. You know, the way I explained it was my father only gave me one thing. But he gave me everything because he gave me a job and a career and we learned all the trades. I got into teaching and fell in love with it right away. Right from day one of year two, I went into my boss's office and I said, you know, what do I have to do to have your job when you leave? So you know, he kind of took me under his wing, he was a plumbing instructor at one point and then became an administrator. A lot of us trade guys are very alike, and just happened to be doing different trades. He took me under his wing got me into some administrative kind of quasi administrative positions in the school. I taught masonry for seven years. And then I was lucky enough to get an administrative job overseeing seven departments there.

Jeremy Perkins  6:11  

Before the the admin portion, you're teaching masonry Correct. What gave you the ability to say, hey, you know, I know enough to teach

Don Ducharme  6:19  

getting into a vocational job. And teaching position is very different than going through the traditional, I'm going to teach math or English and Science and you go to college to learn how to do that. Many of the trade guys are actually pulled right out of the trades, the week prior to starting to teach, I was laying bricks, then you've learned to become a teacher. What works is that everybody has apprentices along the way. So you're teaching guys, when you're in the field, and that kind of gives you the inclination that you'll be good at teaching as well.

Jeremy Perkins  6:50  

Were you nervous about it? I mean, did you think you had enough knowledge to teach?

Don Ducharme  6:54  

Well, you know, what gave me the intuition that I might be pretty good at it was when I was in college, I actually coached the high school soccer team, okay. And coaching is very similar to teaching, if you can get the kids to buy in and build that relationship, that they'll do what you tell them. It's no different whether it's sports or education.

Jeremy Perkins  7:11  

Yeah. And I'm sure that comes running in a crew as well. You know what I mean? You're out there as a foreman or what have you, you're still teaching a group of people, whether they're young or old, and pulling all the skills together. And, you know, you may not know everything, but somebody does.

Don Ducharme  7:27  

Yeah, exactly. It was funny to reference things when I became a teacher. Because when you're on your own crew, a family business, you don't know all of the other masons in the world, right. But when I became a teacher and got exposed to other people that knew my father, they were like, wow, he was good. Yeah. So I knew very early on into teaching that I learned from the best. So it kind of put me at ease, that I would know what I was doing that I was teaching the kids the right things. And that sort of stuff,

Jeremy Perkins  7:53  

when you became an admin was that like, just another whole, you know, shake up my world, I gotta learn a whole nother skill set.

Don Ducharme  7:59  

Absolutely. But again, as you referenced earlier, you know, being a foreman, you're managing people, right. And that's really what it is. Oddly enough, I've never been the supervisor of the masonry program. I've always, I've always overseen other programs, transportation, manufacturing, metal fabrication, machine technology, which has now advanced manufacturing. So it's really about building the relationships. And one of the things that many teachers that become administrators are wary of is losing that connection with the students. I was lucky enough again, to have that mentor. And when you become an administrator, you're helping new teachers become better. So instead of you having that direct connection with the students, you're kind of helping many other teachers become better. So when you look back at it, you're really helping so many more students, I'm not helping them directly. But if I help five teachers that have 30 kids in front of them, right, instead of just helping 30 Kids, I'm helping 150 kids. Yeah, yep. So that's how you look at it when you get into administration. And then there's also the other opportunities to stay connected with the kids with some of the extracurricular activities, the trade competitions with SkillsUSA and FFA and DACA, and all of those sorts of things.

Eric Girouard  9:16  

So going back to when you were teaching for those seven years, and then we'll go to the I think the same thing for the administration. Some folks want to probably just teach some folks eventually want to be an administrator, and maybe some of the both but what were some of the biggest challenges or things that were frustrating when you were a teacher? And then what were obviously some of the most rewarding things and which are obviously more obvious, because you're there to teach, but what are kind of the highs of the highs and the lows and the lows of teaching? And then the same thing for when you get to administration.

Don Ducharme  9:43  

The lows really are the, you know, the sad stories, the sad upbringings that some of these students have, but that also turns into the highest of highs when you help a kid. Get out of a bad situation. You know, when I was teaching I was at greater Lowell Technical High School, inner city. These students even though the school's out, you know, rural town of Tyngsboro. But you see those kids that some that are living on the streets, literally living on the streets, they ended up getting a co op job, and they're out making $15 an hour. And you run into those kids years down the road, and they're like, Oh, thank you so much. You know what they bring back their kid to open house? And, you know, now they have an actual future making, you know, great money as a tradesperson.

Eric Girouard  10:26  

Yep, yep. Wow. Wow. And then what about on the administrator side? Because those folks they're teaching, they've got a career. So they don't have necessarily that story? Right.

Don Ducharme  10:35  

Yeah. So, you know, the lows of that is difficult situations, conversations with teachers that may struggle and may not make it as a teacher. Yeah, that's really the worst thing to go through. And then again, the highs are the same. When you hear the stories from the teachers. It's not you directly, having that interaction with the student, but they came and they tell you the story of you know, I affected this kid. And I heard back from a graduate that was just pumped, because he got a great job because of what he knows and what he learned from us. Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Perkins  11:06  

So jumping into to Essex Tech, I think it's amazing, because there's always that stigma with, with shop teachers that like they're out of the business. They're antiquated. And you know, they're just going to teach now because they can't do anymore. And I think that couldn't be any further from the truth with your outfit. We had the chance to sit on the landscape advisory board. And the two teachers that ran landscaping, they're pretty much running a small business, if I could say that, right? They have a crew, they're tied in with the community. They're learning all about everything like to date, right. They're working with local companies. They're doing a whole bunch of stuff. I was absolutely impressed with the two teachers that we had the chance to sit down and, and talk with their top notch landscapers and I'm sure they probably still do it on the side. But you know, definitely working for Essex tech is unbelievable. And you guys are building a building now, right? Yes, actually, we're

Don Ducharme  11:57  

building a lock in cottage there was a building there previously from a woman that was killed back in World War Two, it was a small cottage, regular New England, Cape house, unfortunately became decrepit over the years from not being used. And now we're putting up a function facility about a 7000 square foot building. And the kids are building this. Yeah. So it's amazing. Their real world project is right on our campus. But getting back to the landscape program advisory committee that you sat on, I think we'd be remiss to thank Billy Butz, who is one of our PAC members as well, and was the one that connected us together as assets tech and Brent. Thanks, Bill. They go out to a pride and for a little plug in. That's the way the construction world goes round connections with people you know, you're always working with multiple trades, right? The landscape departments fantastic. I call them my orange army. They're great with their uniforms, they have high vis orange, big time into safety. They're walking around campus, they're walking near the parking lots near Route 62, a major road that goes right through our campus. So safety is a big thing for them. And that again, starts with clothing. You guys have a bunch of high vis stuff, the boots, the pants, everything is just phenomenal. I've bought it all and it's great.

Jeremy Perkins  13:20  

Their professionalism is top notch, I got a chance to talk with a lot of students that were there. And trust me, I went through a for profit trade school myself, and the professionalism wasn't there, right? Your outfit is just unbelievable. The kids are respectful. They do what they're supposed to be doing. And they really love what they're doing. Yeah, they really do with,

Don Ducharme  13:42  

you know, starts with freshman year going through a discovery and exploratory process so that you can figure out which program you may like how many 14 year olds know what they wanted. I had no idea that I wanted to do masonry, I was forced to do it. I wanted to get as far away from it. That's why I went to college. But when push comes to shove, you come back to what you know, and what you love. And it's why I still do it today on the weekends, get together with my brothers and a couple of buddies and we go out and bang out projects for family friends and customers and stuff like that. So it's just I love doing it. The school is a great job. And it's fantastic. And I could live off of what I make there. I just keep doing masonry because I love it.

Eric Girouard  14:22  

Yeah. Now see, you're in a unique situation, at least the way I see it because I know the trade schools from where I grew up in Connecticut. You're at like the cutting edge from the equipment, to the facilities to the layout to the you know, the teachers to the administration. It's it's kind of leading the charge but the sad reality is the rest of the country it doesn't look like Essex tech does and but, you know, the goal is hopefully that can start to evolve over time and you guys are setting the example of what it could be. Yep, like, give us a little insight into like, you guys are cutting edge but like middle of the con Jerry, what are some of the things that you'd hope that they can start to? You know, Is it government funding? Is it you know, what are the things that really will take them from where they are to get to closer to where you guys are?

Don Ducharme  15:10  

Right? So it's funny, you mentioned the rest of the country and Essex tech, it's, you know, Essex tech is phenomenal. But Massachusetts, vocational education in general is the best in the country. it's looked at as the model that people want to try to replicate. You know, there's all different kinds of organizations that talk around the country about what we're doing and how we do it. Scheduling is a huge part of that funding. Jeremy had mentioned for profit trade schools. The problem really out there right now is that there's not enough access. You know, we've run an after darks program where we bring students in from other districts, comprehensives, they go in, they get their academics in the morning, and they come in to us and learn their trades in the afternoon. Yep. It's just there's not enough schools. Yeah. And that comes down to government funding from the state and federal, they're expensive schools, but they're unbelievable schools. Yep.

Eric Girouard  16:04  

And some of those other states have mass is one of the leading the charge, or one of the top is that their states haven't really put that much energy into believing that, hey, we could do this too. And it's a kind of a state, depending on what they decide.

Don Ducharme  16:18  

Yeah. That would be remiss to say that, you know, I know all the ins and outs of why other schools don't do it as well as we do. Why other states don't don't do it as well, I made

Jeremy Perkins  16:29  

I made a huge observation when I was there. And one of the big things that they have going for them that maybe other schools don't, is your network, your community, right. So as we sat, like I said, on that landscape adviser, these people who run businesses locally, are starving for labor, right? They need top notch people, how does a company like that? Find employees and grow them? Well, you're the source, right? How do we give back? Well, you know, it may be donating a piece of equipment, because you know what, if I donate a piece of equipment with you, they train right. Now all of a sudden, I got a pool to choose from of trained and top notch skilled trades people. And I think that it's a huge give and take, and I think that any school that's disconnected from the community might have a hard time achieving their goals, versus you guys who are really tied in with the community, asking people, Hey, what's going on? What can I do to help you and they're saying the same to you?

Don Ducharme  17:24  

Yeah, that's the exact point of that program advisory committee. You know, we just had about 300 people come in representatives from every industry out there, every shop programs, you know, career tech ed program that we have at the school, and we really listened to what the program advisory committee say, myself and Jill Sawyer is the other CTE director. Whenever we get requests from instructors, the first thing we do is go look at what the program advisory committee had to say, and whether they're recommending that piece of equipment as well,

Eric Girouard  17:56  

right? Yep. Yeah, it seems like it's really circular. Like, you guys have the infrastructure, have the curriculum, train the students, you're kind of a feeder system into these big companies. Those companies kind of give back to the school in a way that keeps coming back that, you know, they get exposure to the students and students get to say, Wow, that's a great company, you know, they're doing great things in the community. They're donating their charitable, they're growing people through their organization, like that might be a place, like outdoor pride that I want to go work one day, and one day, I'm gonna run a crew. And one day, maybe I'm gonna run the, you know, get to build butts. And I'm going to, you know, run the company and all that stuff. And so, yeah, it's pretty circular.

Don Ducharme  18:35  

It really is. We get the kids out on cooperative education opportunities. We actually this morning had about 50 companies come in for a career fair. We circled all of the juniors through the program, they had resumes, they were dropping them off with different companies. And that's how these companies get exposed to the kids. And, you know, my own two sons are at a vocational school, one just graduated, he's working for his Co Op employer. Upon graduation, he hired him and gave him a raise, he's in plumbing. My second son is about to graduate in a month from now. He's already promised a full time job and his third raise in a year upon graduation. So, you know, the other thing is that the you know, the college scene these days is just astronomical with the cost of these colleges. And my own kids are going to get out of school and make anywhere from 40 to $50,000 a year as opposed to paying 40 to $50,000 a year. So you're talking 80 to $100,000 swings per year for four years. Yep. Yep. You know, this, they're so far ahead of the game. Are they going to work hard? Yes. Are they going to get dirty or they're going to be sore? Absolutely. But it's necessary. Every trade out there is screaming for people. Well, and that's

Jeremy Perkins  19:52  

the case too. I was with a company and and we were looking for people and for you to find that. You know that a tack or Have that climber that's got 20 years on the job, you're just not going to find them anymore. I mean, they're already set in their job, you have to pull them from another company, they're just not there. So what's the actual solve for this problem is to grow your base. And once you get that, like you said, the feeder system going, then you're going to constantly have a stream of people that are willing, able and capable, you know what I mean? Right?

Don Ducharme  20:21  

You know, and a lot of the trades are coming back at night for their continuing education. So it's not that they're not going on to college. You know, success is an electrical student coming back at night for his classes to be able to get his license, the lights being on in that building as long as they possibly can during the day and educating as many people as we can. The programs

Jeremy Perkins  20:43  

that you have, aren't your basic, just carpentry landscape. How many programs do you have at the school,

Don Ducharme  20:49  

we have 24 programs. And that's, that's huge seven of them that are in the agricultural field as part of the beginning of the school with the merging of Essex agricultural school, which is what the property used to be right North Shore tech, which was down the street, and then kind of a wing of Peabody High School as well, that had some vocational programs. And the three of those schools came together and opened in 2014.

Jeremy Perkins  21:13  

I mean, the campus is absolutely beautiful.

Eric Girouard  21:15  

It's jaw drop the bar, especially when you see the barns and stuff.

Don Ducharme  21:21  

It's funny, I went from, you know, an eight minute drive to grade a little tech to about a 48 minute drive. And I still have a bunch of friends there. And they're like, you know, how are you liking it out there, what's with the drive, and I says, you know, I come around the corner, and I just see this beautiful building and massive campus. It's unbelievable. It's awesome. It's enlightening to come around that corner. And I got a smile on my face every time I make that turn. And I just have a phenomenal job. I can go anywhere on campus from down and at my desk, and I've been working for too long, I go out and talk to the horses and go out and see the sheep and the goats and all that stuff.

Jeremy Perkins  21:56  

What's gone on talking to the horses again. Alright, you've had an amazing career path. It's definitely you know, a noble one at that. But is this the end of it? Or is there more that you can do within the education field? Really, the next

Don Ducharme  22:11  

step from here could possibly be you know, a principal job or a superintendent position. Yeah, something like that. It's inspiring to be where I'm at now with with Dr. Heidi Riccio. She's a fantastic leader. She was actually in the hospitality field, when she was a teacher, and worked her way up. The nice thing about her, she's never going to ask you to do something that she wouldn't do herself very early on at the school. I've been there for four years now, we get all new furniture in our bistro restaurant. And every single chair was wrapped all four legs, we had to put the seats on and everything like that. And it was a Sunday morning. And she was there with her husband and her administrative assistant. And you know, there was plastic wrap everywhere. My own kids were cutting the plastic off, we put four hours in on a Sunday morning. That's the type of leader that we have and the type of leader that I would inspire to be as well. That's awesome.

Eric Girouard  23:07  

You've been in the trades, and you still are and you still roll up your sleeves, you've been a teacher, you've been an administrator, thinking back to when you were in the trades. What's one thing that you know, now that you wish you knew back then when you were like, figuring it out, making every mistake possible, learn, you know, you had your father so that's, uh, you know, you had kind of mentor, what's something that you're like, Man, I really wish I thought about the world differently or thought about this, or

Don Ducharme  23:32  

a couple of things to that point was one, I wish I get into it sooner into education sooner, yep. To be able to have the effect that I have on students every day. And then the other thing that I've learned most recently is to say, No, this is a job that's 24/7. As far as the education, obviously, everything we went through with the pandemic has really changed the scope of things. But sometimes it's not about just making the dollar every weekend. It's about being happy being comfortable in your shoes and, and that sort of thing. So you know, we're going through some some social emotional training at school as administrators. Yeah. And really, the ability to say no, is enlightening. The ability to put your phone down, the ability to turn off the notifications to just see the count of your emails go from 60 to 70 to 90 on a Sunday morning. And you're just like, Man, I'm so far behind before even started the week, you turn that little red number off? And

Jeremy Perkins  24:34  

I mean, I think I think that that's a good takeaway for anyone. Eric, as a, you know, employer has been good and saying like, unplug, you need unplug time. And I think that there's a lot of people, a lot of business owners and everything that need to not call their employee on a Sunday and say, Hey, what, you know, where's the keys of this car? I mean, I mean, I guess that's, that's probably a good one to call you.

Don Ducharme  24:58  

Yeah, you know, it's It's funny, I was on email the other night, and it's like nine o'clock and a teacher's reaching out to you and, and I responded, I'm like, it's just the wrong thing to do. There's a feature in the Gmail that is send later. Yeah. So you can you can respond at nine o'clock, but it's not going to go until seven in the morning, I

Eric Girouard  25:18  

set the precedent that hey, I don't respond. Yeah. But it'll come at 9am. Right, exactly.

Don Ducharme  25:22  

You know, they're reaching out, but they get the response in the morning. So maybe they think the next time that they go to reach out at nine o'clock that it's not necessary. You know, just relax, go to sleep wake up. And then suddenly, that's true

Jeremy Perkins  25:35  

with a lot of things. A lot of, you know, you may think it's emergency now, but, I mean, there are real emergencies, but a lot of the stuff can wait, you know what I mean? Yeah. Or they resolve themselves in that time period.

Don Ducharme  25:45  

Right? Yeah, your 24 Hour Rule. If you get upset about something, or someone's coming at you, and you know, you want to respond right away, because you just, that's what you want to do. You're on edge, like, I gotta get back to this person. Like, No, give it 24 hours, cool the Jets, clear your head, and then write your response. Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Perkins  26:06  

So usually, we asked, you know, if you have Instagram handle or anything like that, but if there's any resources, or anybody wants to reach out to you, how do they go about doing it?

Don Ducharme  26:17  

Yeah, Essex tech. dotnet is our website. And we have social media as well, part of my job is to go out and take pictures of the kids in action in the program areas. And I send them to our IT guy, and he posts them up there. There's usually you know, four or five posts every day of different things that we're doing on the campus. Just exciting stuff, the animals, advanced manufacturing, all these different programs are unbelievable. And you guys have seen him, come in to our restaurant and have lunch. And yeah, it's a fantastic meal. It's great food, the kids are serving it.

Eric Girouard  26:51  

And that's every day. That's Monday through Friday, excuse me, but pretty

Don Ducharme  26:54  

Yeah, pretty much every day. You know, there's an occasional Merle professional development for teachers and stuff like that. But we you know, we have it on our site. It's on our website, what our hours are, it's always best to call and make a reservation as far as the restaurant goes. But we have another section called the eatery, that the teachers can go up to breakfast sandwiches, or get a lunch, pre made sandwich, and all those sorts of things. So those kids are seeing it as a real world experience. Yeah. And you know, the way I explain it is, you know, the good teacher has very little interaction with the students. And they're basically in the background orchestrating what goes on. Yeah, funny incident earlier in the year, a brand new teacher, we have an open concept restaurant to see into the kitchen. And you know, all the kids are behind the line doing all the cooking and all that sort of stuff. And the instructor was on the other side of the line. And I went into him, and I patted him on the back. He's like, what's that form? Like? Because they are doing the work, not you. You're just standing here and make sure they do it right. When it comes down to it. That's, that's the kids doing the work is what you want to see. That's how they learn. Yep, yeah. So.

Jeremy Perkins  28:06  

So what's the Instagram handle? Oh, I'm

Don Ducharme  28:09  

gonna be in trouble tomorrow.

Eric Girouard  28:13  

We're gonna tag it. It could be a million things. So yeah, there's so many names, but will will will tag it correctly. So make sure it's covered. Sorry, Mr. Marino. But there's always one thing that we always like to ask everyone because you know, you're working. You know, like you said, even if you're unplugged, you're working around the clock. Weekends, you're thinking about getting into your, your passion, which is still masonry, when you're able to kind of like, shut that down, shut down things at the school. What's like your release that has nothing to do with ethics and has nothing to do with masonry? Like, what's your release,

Don Ducharme  28:49  

I'm still a very competitive person as much as an old broken down old man, at this point in time with bad knees and a bad back, but I love golf, and I love fishing, as well. Last week was April vacation from school and I was able to get around to golf in four hours out on a boat with a buddy. And, you know, that's really the release for me. Yeah, that's just my brain off.

Eric Girouard  29:14  

Nice. Nice. Love it. Love it. I love both those.

Don Ducharme  29:20  

Yeah, you never have enough time to get to all of it, you know, but that's where the balance comes in. You know, that's why I still do what I love to do on the weekends and stuff like that. You know, when I get into conversations with kids, and they may not be that motivated and that sort of thing. I always tell them, you know, I work hard and I play hard. Yeah. You know, if somebody asked me to go out to dinner or go play around a golf, absolutely. I never hesitate. It's just you know, the way you have to live. Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeremy Perkins  29:49  

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you for being on the show. This is amazing, and obviously will continue to be on the landscape Advisory Committee. I love it.